Views on Scottish referendum...

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sandra Nicoll — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 12:12:08 GMT

Yes there is but it costs to relocate to them - not just cost of moving but cost in loss of jobs in the area you are relocating them from!!!

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sal the 1st — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:00:45 GMT

yes there are and some of them have them

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

JaneRVN — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 20:43:03 GMT

There are other perfect sites for nuclear weapons in England, Wales and NI!

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sandra Nicoll — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:18:52 GMT

As I understand it the Scots want the naval base not the nuclear weapons...
But as that is the ideal spot - deep waters, they would less likely to have a naval base there if no nuclear weapons!?!

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 08:45:02 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]ie if there was no nuclear involvement would you be happy for Faslane naval base to be there or would you want it closed?[/quote]

With the caveat that i'm not scottish, I have no problem with a naval base - sounds like a great location, and bases tend to be good economic boosts to local communities. Jobs, jobs, jobs are nice.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sal the 1st — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:36:39 GMT

so with Faslane what exactly is the main objection (genuine question) is it

a) naval presence

b) the presence of weaponry

c) purely nuclear issue

ie if there was no nuclear involvement would you be happy for Faslane naval base to be there or would you want it closed?

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sarah Cahill — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:13:57 GMT

And all the subs which were located down in Plymouth are now on their way to Scotland - seems we are a nuclear dumping ground.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

JaneRVN — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:49:46 GMT

Scotland was heading for no nuclear weapons... They survived the IRA...

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:58:57 GMT

[quote user="JaneRVN"]Rather concerned the tangent this thread is going down. As Scotland has housed the majority of the UKs nuclear power vessels it was a genuine point of debate about where facilities such as Faslane would be housed outside of Scotland. Extremist activities really should not be disucussed under this thread. [/quote]

Beg to differ! I can see it was a genuine point of debate where facilities like Faslane would be housed. I think it's equally pertinent as part of that debate to ask whether Scotland would continue to benefit from the UK (what's left of it) having nuclear weapons. To answer that question you need to consider what level of risk (which nukes might be protecting us from) exists. You can't have that discussion in today's world without considering the risk from extremism.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 09:04:52 GMT

That's a good point - I may have to concede on this one. I suppose I just wish we could spend the billion pounds on something a bit more productive than mass destruction. Idealist? Cheapskate? Who knows?

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sal the 1st — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:10:50 GMT

well Pakistan among others certainly don't think nuclear weapons are obsolete

http://www.businessinsider.com/pakistan-is-working-to-create-tactical-nuclear-weapons-2014-9?IR=T

As to the V2 - yes developed by the Germans but ultimately the technology behind it provided the US with rocket propulsion that enabled them to dominate the space race and develop more effective long range weaponry so they could threaten other countries from a greater distance - some of which when it has served its purpose for them they have then passed on to some of their allies (and hoped that they would remain 'friends' ) . How much of what has been developed re nuclear weaponry has now been passed along the line and used by others - does anybody really know? -Others who may have less use of nuclear weapons as a deterrent and more of a use for them as a means of destruction. Whilst some of your super powers might have the precision strike capability and mentality (and if I am honest I am not sure they do) there are others out there whose objective and capability now may be to take out as many as they can and they aren't that choosy about how they do it

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

JaneRVN — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:33:16 GMT

Rather concerned the tangent this thread is going down. As Scotland has housed the majority of the UKs nuclear power vessels it was a genuine point of debate about where facilities such as Faslane would be housed outside of Scotland. Extremist activities really should not be disucussed under this thread.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:25:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Yes, but you're not an extremist. What if your enemy doesn't hold the same view? I'm quite sure that if you'd given Al Quaeda access to nuclear missiles, and the US didn't have nuclear capability, it wouldn't just have been airliners flying into buildings in New York.[/quote]

And if my auntie had external plumbing, she'd be my uncle, yes. The impact of a 'one off' or limited production bomb would of necessity be different.

I know invoking WWII automatically loses the debate, but the Germans had a few V2s and yet ultimately lost the war, with the enormous resources Germany poured into a limited 'miracle weapon' rather a waste. (yes, they weren't nuclear, but by WWII standards, they were certainly unstoppable!) So one or two bombs are a horrific tragedy, but ultimately a nuclear terrorist attack would be a Pearl Harbor scenario, not an Armageddon scenario. Rebuild, rearm, and flatten. (Which isn't a pretty scenario either, I agree!)

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:28:41 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Personally, I feel that nuclear weapons are obsolete. [/quote]

Yes, but what if Tehran, or Isis doesn't agree with you?

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I'd rather take out the bad guy than flatten hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders, thank you very much.[/quote]

Yes, but you're not an extremist. What if your enemy doesn't hold the same view? I'm quite sure that if you'd given Al Quaeda access to nuclear missiles, and the US didn't have nuclear capability, it wouldn't just have been airliners flying into buildings in New York.

Perhaps the only thing that might prevent us being attacked by some of these nutters is if they are quite sure that their own civilisation would be wiped out as a consequence.

And you might argue that they don't have nuclear capability. To which I would say: 'yet'.

The ease with which technology now changes hands, it is only a question of time.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:17:50 GMT

Personally, I feel that nuclear weapons are obsolete. Up until the development of precision weapons, the only way you could guarantee a target would be destroyed was to flatten the entire city. (Bomber Command once estimated that 5% of their bombs in WWII landed within a mile of their target. When Churchill heard this, he is said to have said 'if we can only increase this to 10%, we will have doubled our bombing capacity!')

I'd rather take out the bad guy than flatten hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders, thank you very much. A billion pounds will buy a lot of small smart weapons!

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:31:59 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Dryden"]Ah, but I don't see weapons of mass destruction as security - I see them as a dangerous liability! [/quote]

Well, I think history would say that mutually assured destruction prevented the Cold War turning into something rather warmer! Of course we live in a different world now, and it's valid to question whether nukes are still necessary. My own feeling is that I'd feel naked if 'they' had them and we didn't. It's just that the 'they' has changed now, and the threat may come more from places like Iran than Russia (although what with the goings-on in the Ukraine, I do wonder).

[quote user="Sarah Dryden"]Scotland pays more than it receives back .[/quote]

I saw that point being argued during the referendum, and it surprised me (I'm not saying it's untrue, just that it surprised me). I still think that both countries would have been weakened economically by being divided, Scotland especially so, and that it would have ended up hurting England but perhaps weakening Scotland catastrophically. Plus Scotland seems a more socialist society, and socialism is expensive. If the project didn't result in a net gain for Scotland, then all the socialist-leaning dreams would come to nothing.

But I am not an economist by any means, so perfectly happy to accept my arguments may be completely flawed

Coming back to your earlier point ...

[quote user="Sarah Dryden"]Fracking is something else I am completely against[/quote]

Why?

(genuine question).

I mean of course I'd love to live in a world which used completely sustainable energy sources, but that isn't possible with current technology. So it does seem to me to be a possible short term solution which would reduce our dependence on other countries that cannot be relied upon to remain friendly. And I haven't yet heard of fracking causing problems in the US where I think it has reduced energy prices significantly.

So I guess I'm on the fence about fracking.

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sarah Cahill — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 20:39:36 GMT

Ah, but I don't see weapons of mass destruction as security - I see them as a dangerous liability! Scotland pays more than it receives back so in my opinion we would have been a success. I'm scared of what UKIP will do......

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:59:00 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Dryden"]I would rather spend money on improving our education system, health care, eradicating child poverty etc[/quote]

I fear that if Scotland HAD voted for independence, it would have had far less money to spend on all this stuff than it has as part of the United Kingdom.

[quote user="Sarah Dryden"]than spending millions on nuclear weapons at Faslane[/quote]

And thereby have the security benefits of being part of an island with nuclear capability, without actually paying for it!

RE: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sarah Cahill — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 17:22:12 GMT

The majority of us that voted for independence aren't anti-English at all, perhaps that is how we are portrayed by the media though - and we all know how the media likes to scaremonger. I for one am gutted that we voted against our own independence - not because I "hate the English" - far from it, I would rather spend money on improving our education system, health care, eradicating child poverty etc than spending millions on nuclear weapons at Faslane - somehow I don't ever think Trident will be docked in the Thames. Fracking is something else I am completely against, oh and all the dodgy MPs can do one too as far as I am concerned - Alex Salmond was one in a million - he donated part of his salary to charity and will do the same with his pension, the man is a saint in my eyes and we were lucky to have him as First Minister. Also, all the promises given to us if we voted no - what has happened about them? bugger all! I can only hope that the re-surgence of the SNP means we get another chance soon.

And don't get me started on illegal wars! I could go on, but I won't!

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Ceri Boyd — Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:03:07 GMT

In Scotland the NHS is governed by Scottish parliament and has been since 1999. I don't think other countries will follow suit, as far as I know they don't have the revenue or resources to be able to sustain themselves - please correct me if I'm wrong. I've just voted and whichever way it is I hope for a better outcome for Scotland :)

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Teri-Ann Baldwin — Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:13:37 GMT

I have a quick question - with regards to the NHS what would happen there? I always thought the NHS was British so would Scotland have to have their own style of NHS?

Interestingly, do you think other countries (i.e. Wales and Northern Ireland) may follow suit?

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sal the 1st — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:19:48 GMT

and that emotional level is what makes it dangerous - chuck in the 16/17yr old voters and..... scarey ( btw not saying all 16/17yr olds are not aware or unable to make their own decisions but if the gang of them going to college on the bus I had the misfortune to travel with yesterday are representative of the youth of today then )

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:31:52 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I say reinstate Hadrian's wall[/quote]

Laughed out loud.

On an emotional level, I really struggle to care a great deal whether Scotland wants to go it alone. Cherbourg is closer to me than Gretna Green, and I prefer red wine, brie and boules to whiskey, haggis and caber tossing. So if Scotland sees fit to reinstate Hadrian's Wall, that's fine with me.

Inevitably there will be a HUGE cost to independence, measured presumably in the billions, plus the knock on effects on the financial and other markets which are rather hard to predict. I think it could cost us all rather dear, but inevitably Scotland will be more diminished by leaving than the rest of the UK (such as it is) will be as a result of its departure.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I have thought about this quite a bit - we use Dunlops (or Henry Schein as it is now) if independence happens what would happen with our drug order if we are buying drugs from a different country would it be classed as importing them? and how will this affect buying groups?[/quote]

Yes, I wondered that.

I'm on tenterhooks for the result, though. Everyone I've spoke to thinks that the No voters are too frightened to admit they are going to vote that way, but when they get into the privacy of the booth, they will, because the financial arguments against independence are overwhelming.

I'm not so sure. I think people are voting on a more emotional than rational level.

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:24:58 GMT

http://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~jcollins/Haggis.pdf

Ultrasonography of the wild and domesticated haggis.

Re: Views on Scottish referendum...

Sal the 1st — Tue, 16 Sep 2014 23:33:42 GMT

[quote user="Alasdair Mathieson"]

We've got the Loch Ness Monster in at the moment with severe haggis deficiency, so I've sent all available staff into the hills to shoot as many haggis as they can. This case could go either way.

[/quote]

and I thought it had migrated south of the border

http://travel.aol.co.uk/2014/09/12/loch-ness-monster-lake-windermere-lake-district/

so long as it doesnt bring midges with it! or somebody is going to have to come up with a collar or a decent spot on - is haggis in or out of season at the minute?