Behaviour advice needed please!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Sandra McLeary — Sat, 16 May 2009 17:54:57 GMT

I agree wholeheartedly with the bad puppy party thing also, I am a vet nurse and run my own dog training classes and we had an alaskan malamute attend our classes that after a few weeks it was clear she was struggling to cope in the class environment, after questioning the owner it was discovered that as a young puppy she had attended a local vets puppy class and had spent the whole time on the chair behind her owners back growling etc at the other pups and then when she got too big for the chair would hide under her owners legs growling etc this behavour hadn't been addressed at the class. Puppy classes are a great start if done well.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Vicky RVN — Sat, 16 May 2009 13:23:14 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Brett"]Anne is a fantastic speaker [/quote]

I agree with that one! I'm in Southampton & have been to her talks, she is our client so she also came and did a talk for us in one of practice meetings. Really nice lady I take my dog for training to a lady who was trained by Anne & really like her too!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Lucy Brett — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:16:45 GMT

Sorry. I am obviously feeling very dim at the moment. I am off on holiday tommorrow and am having trouble thinking about anything else. Sorry Caro.

Lucy

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Fiona Leathers — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:10:28 GMT

Don't worry Lucy, Caro just rants every so often!! All good CPD seems to happen when Caro on a late shift, or she books CPD only to be told that her shift has changed onto a late shift - hence the conspiracy theory! She's not having a personal dig, just at the Gods who determine CPD times!!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Lucy Brett — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:21:40 GMT

Sorry?!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:13:25 GMT

I am fed up with CEVA they got the NW one when l am working it is a conspiricy Steph now CEVA l wanna go hide in a corner

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Lucy Brett — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:09:48 GMT

You might be interested in attending one of the CPD evenings CEVA are sponsoring. Dr Anne McBride from Southampton Uni is speaking about canine social development and goes into some detail about how to help nervous or anxious puppies and why it is so important to do so. Two have so far been run in Bristol and Hemmel Hempstead, but more are happening in Wakefield, Maidstone, Glasgow and Coventry. More information is inlcuded on the events page of this site. I don't know where you are based but if you would like to come along let me know and I will book you a place.

Anne is a fantastic speaker and has been working with puppies for over 20 years. I understand the evening very nearly fully booked so if you do want to come please let me know ASAP.

Kind regards

Lucy

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Fiona Leathers — Thu, 14 May 2009 21:27:46 GMT

Behaviour ..........easy..........no one ever says that!!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Jenny T — Thu, 14 May 2009 21:20:35 GMT

You move it away from whatever is frightening it calm it with your voice etc until it is in a state where it can learn. You can ignore an animal showing fear all you want, it is not going to stop being frightened of scary things. Also you may damage the owner-pet bond if you ignore your pet when it is terrified.

There is a big difference between genuine fear and being a bit worried about something. Low level fear responses (eg dog startles at the sound of thunder) is ignored so as not to reinforce and possibly escalate. High level fear responses (eg dog screaming and nearly strangling itself on a lead to escape a tractor driving past) can't just be ignored. You move the dog away and encourage it to settle.

You do though need to be able to judge how frightened an animal is to decide which approach is appropriate. Also, an animal which has had fearful responses reinforced by an owner may go completely over the top at a given stimulus.

I never said it was easy! You have to judge the emotional state of the animal and so the associated ability to learn at that point. Each animal is an individual and also keep in mind that pups are just babies and need much more sympathetic handling.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Cat Woman — Thu, 14 May 2009 19:25:22 GMT

[quote user="Jenny T"]a really frightened pup should be reassured[/quote]

So how do you reassure a frightened dog, without reinforcing/nurturing that behaviour?

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Jenny T — Thu, 14 May 2009 19:21:00 GMT

This is exactly why it is so important to have a good understanding of behaviour and learning theory before we look at running puppy parties, giving behavioural advice etc. Otherwise you can tie yourself up in knots trying to follow the "rules" (and you can inadvertently end up causing more harm than good).

Learning theory states that if you positively reinforce a behaviour then that behaviour is more likely to be repeated. So it would follow then that if you reinforce a fearful behaviour in a pup (eg. reassure when it backs off from another dog), then the pup would be more likely to repeat that behaviour.

This is where Mrs Dot Dot was pretty cleaver in keeping the pups close to the owners (so they felt safe and secure), but not allowing the owners to reinforce any fearful behaviour.

So far so good.

However, in order for this type of learning to occur the pup needs to be in a reasonably relaxed mental state. You cannot expect a terrified animal to learn anything positive (imagine being in a room with someone you thought was going to punch you, and someone else trying to teach you something, you are not going to be in a state to learn anything). This is why a really frightened pup should be reassured and moved away to a distance where it does not show the fear reaction. The pup can then be encouraged closer, but at its own rate (and at this point you would be rewarding wanted behaviours eg moving forward, and ignoring unwanted behaviours, eg backing away). Eventually it can start to mix with quieter pups etc. and hopefully the problem is sorted.

The skill of the person running the puppy class is being able to ensure that any pup does not move from those behaviours you would expect, and show that the pup may be a little worried in this new and strange environment (quite normal), but is still in a mental state where positive learning can occur, to real fear / terror where nothing positive can be learned.

Unfortunately, badly run puppy parties have been a real issue in that they effectively teach dogs to have problems. A pup that experiences a strong fear reaction at a puppy party and does not have this addressed may well learn that other dogs are to be feared. This can lead to nervous and/or aggressive behaviour in later life. Similarly, pups allowed to be overbearing and boisterous at puppy parties may grow up to be dog bullies, who charge up to other dogs and flatten them!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Cat Woman — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:26:37 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]Hi Jenny, would reassurance in a frightened dog not encourage the frightened behaviour though??[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing. Interested to find out.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:15:01 GMT

[quote user="Jenny T"]

If however the pup became genuinely really frightened, then owner intervention would be required to either gently reassure the pup, or move the pup further away until it was more confident.

Hope this helps.

[/quote]

Hi Jenny, would reassurance in a frightened dog not encourage the frightened behaviour though??

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Jenny T — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:03:04 GMT

Still giggling at that !!!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Fiona Leathers — Wed, 13 May 2009 15:02:47 GMT

Almost do!! Cos i've got vetnurse on my blackberry!!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

S-J — Wed, 13 May 2009 10:46:48 GMT

dont u wish you wish u could have a mini Jenny T in your pocket

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Jenny T — Wed, 13 May 2009 09:44:04 GMT

Thank you guys. , you're welcome.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Mrs Dot Dot — Wed, 13 May 2009 06:59:18 GMT

Ditto Bouncyfi!

Thank you Jenny T!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Fiona Leathers — Tue, 12 May 2009 23:01:06 GMT

I love it when Jenny T answers - I learn so much & also realise I'm actually giving the right advice!!

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Jenny T — Tue, 12 May 2009 22:59:36 GMT

Hiya Mrs Dot Dot,

Ignoring a dog- punishment or lack of reinforcement?

All depends on the circumstances. You just need to be clear what you are doing and why, but also take into account the dog's emotional state at the time. In your particular situation with your own dog it sounds like you have a sensitive and anxious individual. Think how relieved and happy he is when you return home. To completely ignore him at this point is a punishment and can increase anxiety levels.

This is completely different from the hyper dog who tries to flatten you when you come in because he is just really over-excited. In this case I would train a more appropriate greeting, and this may well include ignoring this boisterous behaviour and praising calm, sensible behaviour.

So can you see that the same method is not appropriate for all dogs, just depends on the individual and what you are trying to do.

Regarding your puppy party example, I can see exactly where you are coming from, letting the puppy learn at it's own rate, while having the security of the owner nearby (without the owner interfering in the pup's learning process). Not sure I would really class this as ignoring the pup though (the owner is after all sat on the floor with it), Rather, by not allowing the owner to respond to the pup you prevent them inadvertently reinforcing any fearful behaviour.

If however the pup became genuinely really frightened, then owner intervention would be required to either gently reassure the pup, or move the pup further away until it was more confident.

Hope this helps.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Nicola Smith — Mon, 11 May 2009 12:11:22 GMT

Brill replies thank you. I think a lot of it is him still being a baby, but I know the breed are needy. I will definitely try something to lie on as the one pub he settled lovely in had carpet down, the others just wooden floor - he does like his creature comforts!!! As reagrds the igoring him - I don;'t totally blankhim normally just say hi and open the door etc as he had a tendency to get really hyper, so he gets fuss a few minutes later when calm and sensible!! I will be definitely be trying DAP, but plans on hold for now as I am ill and confined to the house!! Thanks everyone

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Cat Woman — Sat, 09 May 2009 14:34:07 GMT

I don't believe that ignoring a dog is a form of punishment. If a dog is exhibiting unwanted behaviour, surely there needs to be some form of correction to redirect the behaviour - or how will the dog know it is unwanted behaviour? With regards to how to greet your dog when returning home, I think they should be ignored for a period of time until they are in a calm & relaxed state (& then they get cuddles etc). I used to greet my SBT with lots of affection & he got so hyped up that it was ridiculous. so, I started to walk in the door & go about my business until he was quiet. Now I can walk in, unmolested! & he will stay laying where he is, with a waggy tail! He knows he will get a cuddle when he is still & quiet.

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Mrs Dot Dot — Sat, 09 May 2009 10:07:02 GMT

For Jenny T... Hi... can you explain abit more about what you said about ignoring a dog being a punishment? It might sound like a dumb question but are there certain circumstances when ignoring them isn't a punishment? You have me a bit worried now as I run our puppy parties, and especially at their first one I always get the owner to sit down, with their puppy on a lead on the floor, sitting between their legs/under the chair, and ask the owner not to acknowledge them.... my thinking being, that they feel secure because they know their owner is there, in this scary situation, but they are able to watch the world go by / take everything in, but they are not being over reassured by their owner.

It seems to work well...... I make sure that no dogs come up close to them and that they are allowed to go and investigate or back away, if they feel the need. I think it allows them to gain confidence in their own time, and most seem to do that after half a puppy party... But you've got me wondering if I'm doing the right thing?

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sat, 09 May 2009 09:26:36 GMT

With Wibble l throw my jersey or jacket on the floor where l am she settles on that and sees it as a "home".

If you are polite then use a blanket like Ruby if you are a slob like me use whatever is handy. And all the above advice as well but in my case l do not need all of that just a patch for Wibs to call her own

Re: Behaviour advice needed please!

Tracey Ison — Fri, 08 May 2009 22:23:09 GMT

Hi NIcky

I am a total Whippet devotee ! and i do find that they are "sensitive souls".I would never advise a spray collar as it will just increase his sense of anxiety .I have used a combination of a DAP collar and Zylkene for one of my whippets after she had a very traumatic time in kennels , i also combined this with homeopathy.I dont know if it was all three in combination or just one but i rate them all!

I take my two on holiday and sit outside pubs etc and always have a small blanket so they have somewhere comfy to settle down .One of my whippets is really sensitive to the weather and willl grizzle if she feels the cold.We remedied this by covering her with one of our pac a macs,whenever we do find somewhere to sit, which she really loves and will remain snuggled up in it for ages.

Does your whippet exerfcise off lead ? We have a chuckit ball flinger which our dogs love ( and you can get retactable ones that are great for taking out and about) ours will go crazy for about 20 mins and then are in a state of coma for hours after!

Could your whippet be anxious when you sit outside pubs due to the close proximity of people/children/noise ,?his may be why he vocalises.You could try visiting quieter areas and sitting down for a while to see if he reacts in the same way.If he remains calm,reward this behaviour and gradually work up to busier areas,using this positive re inforcement all the time.

If he likes his toys , youcould also try a stuffed kong or Ostrich tendon chew ( dunlops) .If you only used these types of toy when you wanted to sit outside pubs etc then he should come to associate the two together as a positive thing.

for the whining in the house, again , one of ours does it we leave the room ,despite the fact that she could follow if she wanted to.We do find that after a holiday,they do have to adjust to being left as when we are away with them they are with us 24/7.Again i would use positive re inforcement , leave the room for a very brief time and if he remains quiet and calm , reward and slowly biuld up the time intervals.

Behavioural therapy should help especially when sought at early stages

Hope this helps

GOOD LUCK!