BIG problem RVNs!

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:43:22 GMT

...ees not dead...eees asleeep... lol.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:08:22 GMT

[quote user="SuzyM"]

For the practice where I work (which was a training practice, but recently decided not to renew the status), the issue is the time and disruption involved with practical training rather than the cost.

[/quote]

yup thats pretty much what I was driving at - 'cost' isnt always measured in coinage, it can be time too - but arguably if a practice is paying somebody for the time they are spending with a student (time that would otherwise be spent undertaking other work/ tasks ) it is costing the practice

[quote user="SuzyM"]

The syllabus-setters seem to be trying too hard to produce 'ready-experienced' nurses.

[/quote]

agreed - and in doing so are producing nurses that fit in with what they want rather than nurses that would fit into any practice. This is what I meant when I said that the system isnt always producing nurses fit for purpose.

Not every practice wants or needs academic, specialist nursing staff but they do want nursing staff that can work alongside them and help them get animals back to health.

Not every vet wants to employ nursing staff that are going to question their judgement, or nursing staff that have a need to enforce their specialist skills and then report back to the RCVS when they dont get their own way but tough because thats what they have ended up with - except there is still a get out clause in that there is no actual rule that they have to employ a qualified nurse at all.

I have become very suspicious of all these little committees over the years, far too many personal agendas, too much sneakiness going on . Pretty much the same names cropping up time after time - they resign from one committee to allow them to sit on another where they might have greater influence, and keep on climbing up the ranks until either the electorate get bored with them and vote somebody else in or finally Mother Nature intervenes and they drop off their perch.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

SuzyM — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:03:35 GMT

My thoughts would be that the practical aspect needs to be simplified and practices, when employing a newly qualified nurse, will accept that individual will need guidance/mentoring initially from a more experienced qualified nurse, just as happens with new vets. The syllabus-setters seem to be trying too hard to produce 'ready-experienced' nurses.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:30:00 GMT

[quote user="Charley Struthers"]

Certain not discrediting to VCA but was just looking and commenting on the assessments they have to do, it all seems like tick box exercises for the course - process an xray tick the box when you done it - wish SVN assessments were like this. And i,ve worked with ACA and do a good job - so no discredit meant :)

[/quote]

On the other hand, you can't tick the box until you've completed that practical task.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:28:42 GMT

[quote user="Amy Barfield BSc (Hons) Zoology,RVN VNES"]

Also a clinical coach can be a VN

[/quote]

really? - thats news to me. I was told VNs cannot be clinical coaches as they are not 'responsible'

and the RCVS website which I have just checked states that clinical coaches can be either veterinary surgeons (home practising) or RVNs - no mention of a VN in there at all. I stopped having anything to do with nurse training in 2010 precisely because of this.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

The Pikachu_Collector — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 20:09:19 GMT

I will post again. Depending on the level of trainee that you are taking on and the vnac you are with, becoming a TP is free, certainly is through my college. We also train clinical coaches for free, all of visits are free... So why does it cost you money? Also a clinical coach can be a VN, RVN or vet! We set up a TP for free, send you a student, that you don't pay wages to and support you free.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Charley83 — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 18:13:19 GMT

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:32:24 GMT

Agree with Sal, 100%.

I have recently been locuming at PDSA and they couldn't work without the undeniable skills, attributes and hardwork of VCA's and ACA's. Absolutely keep the whole shebang stitched safely together... as do the VN's and Vets. Erm, it's called teamwork...

Sorry - sarcastic self now back in my cardboard box...

Ali h

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

molladog — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:11:22 GMT

Agree with all you say Caro,

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Sal the 1st — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:46:00 GMT

[quote user="Charley Struthers"]

Going with what i,ve seen so far i,m wondering what the point of the VCA course is as it just seems like ticking boxes - from what i,ve seen in practice anyway - I always though it would be VN or vets taking x-rays not VCAS.

[/quote]

find out a bit more about the VCA course and what VCAs actually do in practice - you might be surprised . There are two VCAs at the practice I work in and their training and coursework was a lot more than ticking boxes, I know because I co mentored them through it. Dont underestimate the importanceof VCAs

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Megan Whitehead — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:38:14 GMT

Ugh...can be so annoying to log setting up kennels a million times! NPL needs some work, and the IVs/EVs agree mostly, too.

I have been very lucky to have hard-working students who don't mind all that logging! Me, I prefer the pen and paper method :)

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Charley83 — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:05:11 GMT

I think its awful that practices have to pay to become TP how a earth is that going to encourage practices to take on students. I would like to get rid of NPL or at least edit it to be more CC and user friendly - why do you need to do the same skill 3-4 times but in different units and worded differently and things that could be classed together as one separeted into 4/5 sections creating more work. It is in need off an update!! Degree students may not cost the practice anything but not all students can afford degree fees particularly since the majority of my class are in 20-30> , retraining from other professions and get no money what so ever due to age or already having higher qualifications which puts a lot of people off applying or finishing the course. I know if i don't get a job I will have to leave the vet nurse course or reduce practical hours min 15 hours in placement as can't afford to live, study and travel to placement. Going with what i,ve seen so far i,m wondering what the point of the VCA course is as it just seems like ticking boxes - from what i,ve seen in practice anyway - I always though it would be VN or vets taking x-rays not VCAS.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

JaneRVN — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 13:53:46 GMT

Glad to see there are more +ve than -ve comments here.

Good point about the costs to TPs of training VNs. The issue with cost is sometimes highlighted as Vet EMS doesn't need a specially trained vetor registered practice, but a nurse needs a CC and for the practice to be registered. Therefore to some vets there is always a "cost" to training a VN yet not a Vet.

Something for educational committee and VN Council in the future? I'm not a political bod but happy to support those that are and put in my tuppence worth!

As for "fit for purpose"... not really sure what that is directed at? The NPL/CSL or University version ensures student nurses are signed off as competent in hygiene to managing a feeding tube and everything in between. Surely not suggesting some RVNs are lying about a students skills? Or are there skills people would like to see on the NPL that aren't there?

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

The Pikachu_Collector — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 13:21:45 GMT

Because the training is expensive to the practice in both time and finances and isnt actually producing nursing staff that are fit for purpose in many cases. ................I will defend this if I may. If you chose the right VNAC, there are NO fees to pay to the college or to the student! I work for a vnac, and our fdsc and BSc nurses are unpaid throughout their block training and there are no set up fees for becoming a TP or clinical coach!!! We also train our students to our level of vet nursing - which surpasses the term high!! Basically, to train a vn through the degree route, it costs the practice ZERO!! Nothing, no money!!! As soon as the veterinary practices realise this the better!! Also, just to add on, I have never been told which CPDs to do by any employer, my CPD budget if I had one worked in to my contract at all, was mine to spend how I liked! I have also been involved in implanting new policies and procedures in to practices that have required my time and sweat to pull off! Yes I am an RVN, but I am also part of the team! If your vets don't allow you to have input in policy and procedures, then you are in the wrong work place. I have been voluntary, employed and locum for a variety of practices and I have always been treated the same and respected as part of the veterinary team. If I ever felt ignored/lesser, inferior to a vet, then I would not stay with them!

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Charley83 — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:21:41 GMT

This may sound sad but I have enjoyed reading the enthusiaism and drive of these posts from Megan and AJ as a human nurse coming into veterinary nursing I am forever getting comments from people thinking i,m mad to convert " going for a well paid well structured profession with numerous opportunities to to crap dead end job with no where to go". It has took me years to get into this profession - as career advice has not been good, TP are full or do not reply. I was told the only way into the profession was to get a job - ( which are like hen's teeth!) I would much rather be happy with crap pay, than have good pay and be miserable for the rest of my life. Having been many practices the role of the VN is very different in some it seems merely to be a cleaner and hold animals for the vet where in others VN are very much involved in the care, run clinics, dental care etc. I would like to see the role of the VN expand for those who wish this - I,m not qualified yet but i,m thinking would love to do advanced diploma and certificate in dentistry - some say to me no point you get no recognition. There so much negativility in this profession and I though the human side was bad! - I,m doing it to better the care for my patients. I share your drive to make this a better profession and wish you all good luck.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Ali — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:16:00 GMT

As a RVN with 18 years experience in the veterinary nursing profession, I am astounded by some of the negativity and hatred for the RCVS. I wonder what direct experiences people must have had with them to foster such hardlined views??

I too would like to thank Megan and AJ for engaging in the debate and working very hard to represent those of us that would like to see our profession move forward. I would like to see the title protected, I would like to see nurses taking the R a little more seriously., I would hope we all have the welfare of our patients in mind. I manage a training practice and would never employ a VN without the R!!!

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

A-J — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 19:24:54 GMT

as with Megan I guess we will agree to disagree.

As a mum of 4 I have a very good idea of financial constraints in our poorly paid profession. I do live on that budget.

At least we have shown that some of us aren't apathetic - debate at last ;-)

Thank-you

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Amy Homer. RVN. NCert A&CC — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:07:13 GMT

i agree and shadow the above two posts of thanks to megan and aj in trying to support veterinary nursing as a profession. i guess no matter how hard you try, there will always be those who apose change but then everyone has the right to an opinion. i agree that it is going to be a difficult task to protect our title, but it needs to be done! put simply, i don't think you should be working as a nurse unless you are qualified at doing so.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Ceri Boyd — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:37:59 GMT

Cast my vote today. I for one think it's worthwhile and I took my time to read the manifestos. Thanks Megan and AJ for your enthusiasm and pushing the profession forwards. Ceri x

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

fairy — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:19:58 GMT

Thank you Megan and A-J for your positivity and enthusiasm and for trying to better the profession :-) I think it is fabulous xx

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:01:35 GMT

No you look forward to it l have told you l have no interest in politicos and why the hell should l waste MY time and MY life to set up some suggestions for a group of people rcvs vncouncil l have a dislike and distrust of?

You are blinkered. The reality is that no ones idea matters except those who hold power, in this case at rcvs at any one time and you have repeatedly missed the point that l really don't care about your/rcvs ideas and aims l will do what l must to make a living l wont give more time than l do to it which is pretty much zilch apart from the odd trip to this forum. Oh and l used to care a lot but l learnt the hard way what matters to me and l won't make that mistake again.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Megan Whitehead — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:48:32 GMT

Sal,

I strongly agree with the need to implement major changes for TPs. It is completely unacceptable there are so few, and I support you in that.

And by regulation, I mean that (hopefully) soon no one will be able to say they are a veterinary nurse unless they are qualified, and that is a big move!

I guess I am still struggling with your conscious decision not to join the Register, especially since you are able to meet the CPD requirements. However, it is still your decision and we can just agree to disagree. I know from previous posts that you have already read the manifestos, and I hope you have exercised your right to vote!!

And thank you all for the lively discussion! !

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:19:38 GMT

[quote user="Megan Whitehead"]

Sal and Caro, regulation will be for ALL when we achieve statutory regulation, something the VN council has been working on for some time and I think we should all look forward to.

[/quote]

but it wont be for all, unless by ALL you really mean qualified nurses? You are missing the point. There will still be the majority of nursing staff working in practice with no formal qualification and who will be unregulated and nothing to say that practices have to employ qualified staff at all. So what do you propose? that we ignore that? What else should we be ignoring or just conveniently failing to acknowledge?

Actually I have offered many workable suggestions/ solutions re making the training more practice friendly, reducing the costs ( for starters by losing some of the tinsel that has been tacked on to the qualification) and by instituting a fee payable by practices that are not actively participating in nurse training that can then be used to offset some of the costs for those that are - whats more I have been saying these things for a very long time.

Manifestos I can promise you I have read them.

CPD - I can honestly say I have not cost the practice I work at a bean in the last 4 years and even though I am not obliged to keep my CPD current I have more than fulfilled the hours (with CPD which is actually relevant to the job I am doing rather than just doing anything and everything to log the hours) - including co- mentoring 2 very reluctant nursing staff through the VCA.

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Megan Whitehead — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:44:02 GMT

Sal and Caro, regulation will be for ALL when we achieve statutory regulation, something the VN council has been working on for some time and I think we should all look forward to.

I'm with AJ--I hear you both make a lot of complaints but offer no solutions. What are your ideas? I also think that CPD can be affordable and accessible. I have lived in the Scottish Highlands and managed it, so where there is a will there is a way.

I'm very sorry to hear your negative attitudes. I'm running for VN council precisely to address some of your concerns. Some things we disagree on, too. If you want better try reading the manifestos and VOTE! Or you could run yourself next time, if you really feel no one represents your opinion or people in your shoes.

Megan :)

Re: BIG problem RVNs!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:40:13 GMT

Proposal :-)))) if that was not so pretentious it would be obnoxious.

I wont bother replying to all your comments as it is pointless just re read my earlier comments but to keep the peace ... a bit

Please spare me "You should have before .." l have been a locum since at least 06 l THINK l may have worked out a few things. However it may have escaped your notice l am an normal VN LISTED cpd and wasting time and money is my choice not forced on me by a bunch of politicos who have no part in my life.

l will refer you back to other comments regards cpd re read them and l think l may have worked in more places than you so have a pretty good idea of what is out there people/practices/equipment wise so go be surprised. And no mis understanding regards the intent.
Instruments are not infallible but used correctly they give a damm site more info than your eyes and ears can. I am a lot happier with even a basic oesophageal stethoscope than nothing add in capnograh and l am even happier add in ECG and things improve even more, pulse ox l had no time for but l know if it can be read better as a graph not just numbers it would be of use the problem is generally practices only have cheap ones with numbers which are pretty much a waste of time. Anaesthetics was the CPD l did so l can better use my instruments and it is pretty much the only area l can have a say on.

*HEADSMACK" Silly me l don't have a proposal and don't want an r so how can l want the best outcome for my patients in just one named area of my work.

Go live on the budget a lot of people live on and/or the life they lead then come tell me it is doable. People really need to get a grip on reality and take their heads out the clouds.

Oh dear l am mortified at being old school...the problem with old school is that they have been there and fed up of the BS nothing is new just recycled. ... but be aware you will also soon be old school to those coming along so don't throw to many stones they rebound.... and l don't eat cakes and biscuits which is just as well because we have a small bakery my other half runs.

l go into work, l do my work to the best l can in whatever l do, no one is infallible we all make mistakes but l try learn from mine. l don't take my work home because l learnt the hard way it is just work and when l have a problem it wont be there for me nor will rcvs vn council or any other bunch of politicos. It is my FAMILY and my FRIENDS who will be there and have been.

royal charter whatever happens will happen l will not take any notice because l can not stop or change it l just have to live with it any discussions like all political discussions are a sop like a baby's dummy.

Let me put it this way l have no wish to take out the r and if l join it will not be a happy joining it will be forced through circumstances not choice. And to me that is bullying.

Now excuse me l have a life to lead l have done with political talk have told you why l don't want the r good luck with whatever happens to you. It may or may not help but no one will have my vote because of my feelings on it all but at least you have spoken out l hope you do not become to disillusioned with the reality if you are voted in.