Docking - the law

Re: Docking - the law

Saskia Quinn — Mon, 11 May 2009 20:21:46 GMT

hey, no worries Jan. Its all forgotten and dont be embarrassed, I am sure it happens to the best of us!!

Re: Docking - the law

jan — Mon, 11 May 2009 10:26:28 GMT

But it hasn't helped my spelling!!!!!!

Ive deleted my post. If those who quoted me could do the same Id be gratefull

Re: Docking - the law

jan — Mon, 11 May 2009 10:22:01 GMT

Sorry to bring this up a gain. I am ashamed of what I wrote. PLs read the post entitled Sorry. Needles to say I am now tea total

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 23:03:24 GMT

My dad used to dock his jack russels tails, many moons ago when I was small, I remember it vividly, and they never had any problems.

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 22:59:45 GMT

In my experience Ive seen more problems through poorly/badly docked tails done by vets than gamekeepers Im afraid to say.

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 22:56:42 GMT

certainly some vets I have seen docking........ should have been wearing a butchers apron instead of a vets top.

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 22:53:12 GMT

Well I have an opinion that I dont expect anyone to agree with. I think that gamekeepers were far better than vets at docking puppies.

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 22:30:13 GMT

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"]i'm sure if I look through other posts i'll find that certain people are allowed to express their opinions and everone else is supposed to agree with them - very [/quote]

I personally think Jacquie that you were hoping everone would agree with you on this issue, and the ones who have not have been singled out by you with insinuations of unfriendliness amongs other things. I think I could actually quote your above quote to you.

The issue of docking will always be controversial, but we are allowed our own opinion even if it does conflict with yours.What we dont like is being or made to feel bad for not sharing your views.I am not in anyway perturbed at your views on docking,but I will not be made to feel bad because of mine.

Re: Docking - the law

Claire Cameron — Sun, 10 May 2009 21:26:00 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

MissVN , that is a really interesting post, and I take my hat of to you.

[/quote]

Thanks everyone, expected to get slated for that, Really pleased that me and STRVN have had our opinions listened to open minded

This is a subject I'm quite passionate about and I think people should open their minds slightly on this one. My opinions on this changed massively after working with working breeds in particular!

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"].

I don't know why people can't have the tails docked under GA when the dog is old enough to do so. I also have a problem with breeders saying that they know exactly who the dogs are going to at a few days old when clearly that's a lie and at vets who will do anything to keep clients happy (have worked with enough of them!) regardless of whether it's in the interest of the animal.

[/quote]

In my opinion, the risk of anaesthetic outweighs the momentary discomfort of a tail amputation in a 3-5 day old puppy.

Also, your comment regarding vets knowingly docking tails of older puppies, I'm sure this unfortunately does happen, however this is the minority, we all know about how portraying the minority as a majority can work (The Tonight Programme, portraying a minority of vets as the majority of them being money grabbing and dishonest, when we all know this is an extreme minority)

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"].

[/quote]

In my opinion, the risk of anaesthetic outweighs the momentary discomfort of a tail amputation in a 3-5 day old puppy.

[quote user="Rachel Jayne"]

I really hate it, I can kind of understand it a bit more now I work in a mixed countryside practice, cos springers apparently get them wripped apart in bracken when they're out working, but still, like others have said, remove it IF there's a problem.

[/quote]

Again, do we not neuter to prevent problems? We neuter on the assumption that the patient MAY develop a pyo etc?

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"]

How many springers have you seen with undocked tails - I don't think I've ever see any. Also just because a dog look's 'odd' with a tail it doesn't mean it's right to cut it off. After all I'm sure some clever breeder could work on breeding the 'tail' gene out and change the breed forever, just like they've done with CKCS and their heart conditions, GSD's and Rotts with hip dysplasia, Shar pei's with skin conditions, Bulldogs with short snouts that create poor breathing and the list goes on and on......

[/quote]

I'm sure this has been considering, I worked with a vet recently who had a boxer breeder with genetically docked tail, however this takes a long time and its easier to breed out when there is a condition, for example CKCS and heart conditions, it is easy to breed the heart condition out as you find a healthy CKCS to mate with, however how many short tailed dogs do you know to breed out the tail length?

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"]

I originally posted this for information and I thought the debate would be interesting and I agree with the post that that said it shouldn't be abusive or personal.

[/quote]

I don't think I've been abusive nor personal.

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"]

I am new to this site and do I find it friendly - no - and i'm sure if I look through other posts i'll find that certain people are allowed to express their opinions and everone else is supposed to agree with them - very sad!

[/quote]

This IS a friendly site, everyone on here has provided me with a massive amount of support recently and I cant thank them enough. Surely it would be boring if we all agreed? That's the point of a debate!?

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 21:04:44 GMT

[quote user="Vicky C"]

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]Regardless of what you may say Jacquie, this is a friendly forum and if you stay on long enough, you will realise that.[/quote]

I def agree with that one You only need to read the comments of support people have given each other to realise this. I had a fantastic amount of support from people on here when my nan became ill and passed away last month, if this forum hadn't been a friendly place i wouldn't have received that support.

On that note, can i say thank you to everyone who was here for me at that time, it made things easier having you to talk to x

[/quote]

I agree also, I thank the people on this forum,they have been of great support to me over the last few months and I would have been lost without them.

Re: Docking - the law

Vicky RVN — Sun, 10 May 2009 14:09:20 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]Regardless of what you may say Jacquie, this is a friendly forum and if you stay on long enough, you will realise that.[/quote]

On that note, can i say thank you to everyone who was here for me at that time, it made things easier having you to talk to x

Re: Docking - the law

Saskia Quinn — Sun, 10 May 2009 14:02:30 GMT

I dont think STRVN has taken anything personally at all. She has owned Rottweilers for a long number of years and was giving her view on it, same as everyone else was. I for one, enjoyed reading her posts as she is well informed with the Rottweiler breed.

And also, no one is obliged to agree with any certain person in particular, what would be the point of the forum then?

Regardless of what you may say Jacquie, this is a friendly forum and if you stay on long enough, you will realise that.

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 13:12:25 GMT

Jacquie, I think you have taken things personally.... If I may say so, after all when I was not agreeing with you, you thought it was ok to try and undermine what I was actually saying, and also tried to make out like I am some saddo for not wanting a rot with a tail. If anyone was being unfriendly quite frankly it was you.

Re: Docking - the law

Anonymous — Sun, 10 May 2009 13:06:40 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]if you docked an adults tail they would feel the pain almost immediately[/quote]

I assume you've said this if you were to dock an adults tail as you do a pups - without GA? Of course you wouldn't do this as it would be the height of cruelty, wouldn't it?

I originally posted this for information and I thought the debate would be interesting and I agree with the post that that said it shouldn't be abusive or personal.

Everyone's got their own opinions and should be able to express them but I have found that this is not so - STRVN especially, seems to have taken this personally more then anyone - as plain to see when MissVN posted in agreement with her view and she responded. I haven't attacked anyone, I merely made a post and then asked a question. I respect that other people may have a view that is different to mine and which I might find abhorrent but that's life.

Re: Docking - the law

Saskia Quinn — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:37:45 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

MissVN , that is a really interesting post, and I take my hat of to you.

[/quote]

I agree, well said MissVN

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:35:17 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

MissVN , that is a really interesting post, and I take my hat of to you.

[/quote]

I agree.

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:33:50 GMT

MissVN , that is a really interesting post, and I take my hat of to you.

Re: Docking - the law

Claire Cameron — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:25:23 GMT

[quote user="Jacquie Youngs"]

At the end of the day it shouldn't be a moron breeder who makes the decision to mutilate a newly born pup 'just in case' and if animals could speak I'm sure they'd not want to have a part of their body cut off without GA and would rather have a damaged tail dealt with later on with the help of GA/pain relief/anti-B's.

[/quote]

On a similar note, do we not neuter our animals as they MAY get a pyo? malignancy?

I totally agree with STRVN on this one, I'm friends with a working springer breeder who docks his litters as he does not know which pup he will be keeping himself. I have seen many a springer to have damage to the tail due to not docking them and the pain is far greater than when docking a pups tail

I have recently read papers regarding the pain pathways and nerve transmissions in young pups, I cant remember the figures so please forgive me, however if you docked an adults tail they would feel the pain almost immediately, whereas pups have a slow response to the pain stimuli and many of the pain 'signals' are unable to reach the brain as they transmit slowly. Sorry I cant find the paper to hand to quote,

I have a West Highland White Terrier with a small tail, not docked however, her mum chewed it off when she was a puppy and I ALWAYS get people preaching to me about tail docking...

My partner also has a working springer spaniel with a docked tail.

I agree with STRVN also about the breeds without tails, I personally think Rotties look 'odd' with a tail as do Boxers.

A lot of working breeds do not have their tails docked due to the tail position as various breeds of working dogs hold their tails high when working, Springers hold theirs low and wag hence why they receive trauma whilst working as they encounter bracken etc. Also a lot of working breeds have a thicker tail - the Labrador for example, which is less likely to become traumatised than a thinner tail

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:23:19 GMT

[quote user="jan"]

Don't puppies feel pain then?

Would you forget me cutting your hand of f with a pair of scissors? I'm well wiling to come & try it by the way. On you or your children. Any time Bring it on

[/quote]

Whether this is an example of irony or not I think its actually quite an aggressive statement to make!

Re: Docking - the law

Mac Feather — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:18:01 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

Jan I dont actually know who pissed on your parade tonight, but maybe you would like to read my posts again,........ and then comment!!!!!

[/quote]

Jan, it does seem like something has upset you, if so why not start a thread about it, get it off your chest perhaps.

Re: Docking - the law

Saskia Quinn — Sun, 10 May 2009 11:09:58 GMT

[quote user="jan"]

Don't puppies feel pain then?

Would you forget me cutting your hand of f with a pair of scissors? I'm well wiling to come & try it by the way. On you or your children. Any time Bring it on

[/quote]

Having read a few posts you have made tonight Jan, quite frankly, if someone has upset you, there is absolutely no need to post remarks like that on here. There is no need to get personal either.

This is a friendly forum where we can all come on and discuss things etc. We do not need to be reading remarks like that.

By the way, I think you should find that it is not us nurses that are doing the docking of tails and if I remember correctly, some on here would not even partake with the vet in doing so.

I suggest you take your 'not nice' comments to the ones who actually carry out these acts.

Re: Docking - the law

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 10 May 2009 00:56:33 GMT

Jan I dont actually know who pissed on your parade tonight, but maybe you would like to read my posts again,........ and then comment!!!!!

Re: Docking - the law

jan — Sun, 10 May 2009 00:48:49 GMT

That was ironic by the way. I dont want to cut abything of anyone at all. Peace at love and all that. Which extends to man & wonens best friend

Re: Docking - the law

jan — Sun, 10 May 2009 00:45:59 GMT

Oh & bye the way Belief isn't truth

Re: Docking - the law

jan — Sun, 10 May 2009 00:44:36 GMT

I have deleted this Sorry

Pls read post called sorry !!!!!