Raw diets

Re: Raw diets

funkyfish — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:51:18 GMT

I am a behaviourist and am very interested in the raw debate. I have a few questions that no raw feeder I have spoken to can answer for me:

1) name a country where dogs hunt and eat raw meat regularly, where they are not persecuted by humans for competing for food resources.

2) why dogs' get no nutrition form carbs', esp in light of the new Axelsson research.

3) what's so 'special' about a dog/wolf stomach that means it will not get food poisoning?

4) if corn causes cancer in dogs has it been proved in other species?

5) which wolf species do they think dogs evolved from? Is their diet/life style/physiology similar to all canids now?As it takes thousands of years for evolution to take place, how can you accurately compare dogs to the grey//timber wolf. When it has been proven that dogs and wolves split on the evolutionary tree 13 thousand years ago. And the fact that feral dogs live a life style and have a diet more like a jackal/fox.

6) name other species that are closely related genetically that eat the same food? Several species of birds and mammals are more genetically similar and have similar physiology but they eat very differently so as not to compete for resources.

I have a whole list of questions but that is all I can think of on the top of my head at the min.

Re: Raw diets

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Oct 2013 15:14:02 GMT

[quote user="Elerrina"]

I found it hard to come by reliable information.

[/quote]

yes this has been my problem, but I have read as much as I can, some of it seems sensible and some of it seems if I am really honest to be downright barmy. Yes I have done courses with Hills, Waltham, Purina and Eukanuba (so no favouritism for any one of the commercial diets available). I have also read up on BARF and raw feeding and I wouldnt discount it as a viable feeding option - so long as it is worked out properly,and this I feel is where it falls down, not because it is a bad diet but because some of the people using it (not all by any means) just dont understand their pets dietary requirements . I have seen problems with raw feeding (broken teeth, impactions cased by bone etc etc) but as already remarked commercial diets are not without problems either. And no I am not sitting on any fence or taking any sides.

I think that some of the raw food feeders are a bit fanatical about citing commercial food as being the cause of every disease known to man (and a few others they have thought up along the way) and I think that hasnt done them any favours credibility wise with the veterinary profession and commercial food producers

Re: Raw diets

Elerrina — Sun, 06 Oct 2013 14:43:08 GMT

Interesting reading, I've not really ever read much into raw diets as I found it hard to come by reliable information. On the point about allergies I wouldn't necessarily put that down to food, I think that stems from bad breeding as we see so many staffies with skin problems now and its only since they became status dogs and were over bred.

Personally I have always thought the rise in allergies in people is due to germ-a-phobes using ridiculous amounts of cleaning products. Children need to play in the dirt a bit more nowadays =)

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:31:19 GMT

Re: Raw diets

janie550 — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:29:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

We are seeing the same rise in allergies etc in humans. Maybe the cause is environmental rather than nutritional?

[/quote]

Maybe this is true Gillian. However the first step many holistic vets will take is to address the diet and change it from a processed on to a raw or 'natural' diet and often improvements are seen to these conditions without the need for other treatment.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"], people don't drag their raw meat all over the floor or all around the house. Secondly, fresh meat may have a 'normal' level of contamination but some owners do allow their pet to get 'food poisoned'- I have had to treat a cat whose owner used to get raw chicken out of the freezer in the evening, defrost it at room temperature overnight and then leave it in the cat's bowl the next day.... until it decided to eat it. . Thirdly, my opinion is my own, arrived at by common sense and knowledge, not due to any information from pet food companies. I simply wouldn't want my dogs eating raw meat on my carpets.[[/quote]

Who would suggest you feed raw meat over your carpet? This is down to common sense and education. I worked with a colleague who ended up with campylobacter because she thought it would be a good idea to leave a frozen chicken out in the sun to defrost (I kid you not).

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] is sentences like this, that insinuate vets are robots just blindly following the pet food 'fat cats', that do your cause no good.

[/quote]

Sorry if you found this comment inflammatory (no pun intended). I certainly did not insinuate that vets (in fact I was talking about the vet nursing profession) are robots and do no research themselves. However the sad truth is that most nutrition education, conferences, seminars are all sponsored by pet food companies. This makes me uneasy and I feel it is a cosy partnership which the profession needs to extricate itself from. It is a subject we are touchy about but which needs to be discussed in my opinion.

Another sad truth is that we simply don't have enough independent research to refer to - another thing we need to address.

So perhaps until then, I think Mark is wise to sit on the fence. It's probably comfortable there.

Re: Raw diets

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 21:44:51 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Careful Mark, you'll get splinters in your a**e!!

[/quote]

Hah! or worse, I'll get high-centered! :) *squeak*

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:25:28 GMT

Careful Mark, you'll get splinters in your a**e!!

Re: Raw diets

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:20:20 GMT

[quote user="janie550"]

What I find hard to comprehend is how our profession has allowed itself to be prostituted by pet food manufacturers for so long. Time to wake up and smell the roses.

[/quote]

I think it's a bit too easy to accuse the vet profession of sleeping with strange bedfellows. You're right, some people are in veterinary medicine for the massive financial reward that this job gives you, but a lot of them are just taking the best available medicine and best available knowledge and humanely doing what they can for their patients and owners.

(Those same owners who are the first to blame us when things go wrong, so it's hard to blame some folks for taking the simple and easy answer.)

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything; as long as the pet is healthy, I've got no ax to grind.

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:06:01 GMT

OK, I'll respond to a couple of your points before I quietly retreat....

[quote user="janie550"]I agree, we certainly see these deficiencies rarely these days. However, in their place we have seen a huge increase in inflammatory conditions- the top 10 claimed-for conditions last year were nearly all inflammatory processes such as allergic skin disease, arthritis, otitis. We need to start asking why this is - I believe, as do many holistic practioners, it is mainly due to the processed diets we are feeding to our animals.[/quote]

We are seeing the same rise in allergies etc in humans. Maybe the cause is environmental rather than nutritional?

[quote user="janie550"]I agree this is a risk to people if not handled correctly - as with all fresh meat products. It does not stop most people buying and preparing meat for their own dinner! For dogs, there is little risk - the immune system of a dog is not the same as ours, which is why they are able to cope with eating disgusting things like faeces without an issue. The stomach pH is acidic enough to kill off harmful bugs, unless your animal is immune compromised. Again, I find this is fear-mongering perpetuated by the pet food companies.[/quote]

Firstly, people don't drag their raw meat all over the floor or all around the house. Secondly, fresh meat may have a 'normal' level of contamination but some owners do allow their pet to get 'food poisoned'- I have had to treat a cat whose owner used to get raw chicken out of the freezer in the evening, defrost it at room temperature overnight and then leave it in the cat's bowl the next day.... until it decided to eat it. . Thirdly, my opinion is my own, arrived at by common sense and knowledge, not due to any information from pet food companies. I simply wouldn't want my dogs eating raw meat on my carpets.

[quote user="janie550"]I disagree and have a several dogs including a very healthy 10 year old Vizsla who has been raw fed since puppyhood as my 'proof'. Isn't this the issue - the 'proof'? [/quote]

I have a 15 year old border collie fed kibble her whole life. I wouldn't suggest this proves that kibble is better.

[quote user="janie550"] If there was a 'complete food' for humans, would you eat that all your life? No, because even if it was researched and backed up by science, your instincts would tell you that it is fundamentally wrong to cut fresh foods out of your diet.[/quote]

I don't eat raw meat so I could argue that humans have evolvedand now choose to eat a different diet. However, being anthropomorphic adds little to the debate.

[quote user="janie550"]What I find hard to comprehend is how our profession has allowed itself to be prostituted by pet food manufacturers for so long. [/quote]

Unfortunately it is sentences like this, that insinuate vets are robots just blindly following the pet food 'fat cats', that do your cause no good.

Re: Raw diets

janie550 — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 11:42:00 GMT

Thanks Mark, I agree that raw feeding can be done badly. I remember a case of spontaneous fractures in a Birman cat. Turns out the owner was a breeder who believed he was doing the right thing by feeding only lean beef mince to his kittens. Ughhhhhh. But we have a duty to be able to advise owners who wish to feed raw on the best formulation for their individual pet, not to think 'oh, too hard! I will just sell him/her a bag of eukanuba'. As discussed, yes it is complete and balanced as far as the label goes, but is it really what is best for health? I think the point I was trying to make is that unlike owners, we are veterinary professionals and as such it is our job to understand and advise on optimum nutrition. What I find hard to comprehend is how our profession has allowed itself to be prostituted by pet food manufacturers for so long. Time to wake up and smell the roses.

Re: Raw diets

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 08:52:11 GMT

[quote user="janie550"]

[/quote]

True, Janie, you make many excellent points. However Gillian did have an equally excellent point that many owners are not capable or interested in taking due care with food hygiene and nutrition. (Surely you've run into a few owners like that, I think we all have!) For those owners who just can't be bothered, well...maybe processed has a place. No two dogs are alike and no two owners are alike.

I cheerfully admit that I've seen raw food-fed dogs in consult with brilliant owners and absolutely texbook, gorgeous conformation. I'm only sorry that more owners don't take the necessary care with their pets! (Conversely i've seen some quite lovely dogs on commercial food as well. So much of it is due to proper exercise and care by the owner.)

I honestly admire that you've done all that research and hard work on raw food; and I think if half the pet owners in the UK had a quarter of that interest in their pets, we'd all have much improved animal welfare in the UK.

...and yet, here we are.

Re: Raw diets

nursenat — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 08:35:58 GMT

An absolutely fantastic post Janie! Spot on!

Re: Raw diets

janie550 — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 08:18:45 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years and there is much debate as to whether we should even be comparing them to any kind of wild canine at all, especially if we are trying to replicate a wild diet. It is also valid to say that wild canines eat raw food because they have no alternative. If they had a choice, I suspect they'd rather eat the kibble than the decomposing carcass.... but that is simply my opinion.

I agree with your first point, dogs have evolved and cannot be regarded as wolves in terms of diet (or behaviour) and in fact been shown to have evolved to better cope with startch in their diets. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

Your second point I disagree, however we do know that dogs and cats form food preferences from a very early age, (hence the reason for pet food manufacturers giving us free puppy and kitten packs - they are not silly) therefore it could be argued that a domesticated and kibble fed animal might rather eat kibble.

There is no doubt that feeding bones can cause some health problems to the dog or cat: damaged teeth, GIT obstructions, enteritis, impactions etc. However, commercial diets can also cause health problems, including obesity and dental disease. It thus comes down to giving the owner an overall picture, with the pros and cons of both, and letting them decide for themselves. Getting objective opinions on the internet can, however, be virtually impossible as the only people who tend to post their opinions online are the ones who are fanatical!!

I would not regard myself as fanatical, just passionate. There are now plenty of websites which are reputable and can be used to help us decide the best diet for an animal in our care. This is one example https://secure.balanceit.com/

Certainly I have seen obstructions and impactions caused by bones - more often than not this presents as a dog who does not normally eat bones regularly, but gorges itself on a bone given as a 'treat' by a well-meaning owner. Dogs who are fed raw diets have a more acidic stomach pH which allows them to better digest bones. Again, the bones fed need to be appropriate for the animal in question - e.g. don't feed big hard beef bones to small dogs for example. Unfortunately we usually present a very biased view of dog and cat nutrition, mainly negative as sadly VNs receive most of their nutrition knowledge from pet food companies. This lack of independent knowledge is causing us to fail our patients, in my opinion.

I agree, we certainly see these deficiencies rarely these days. However, in their place we have seen a huge increase in inflammatory conditions- the top 10 claimed-for conditions last year were nearly all inflammatory processes such as allergic skin disease, arthritis, otitis. We need to start asking why this is - I believe, as do many holistic practioners, it is mainly due to the processed diets we are feeding to our animals. http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/top-10-dog-and-cat-insurance-claims

People who feed raw also need to be aware of the public health issues due to the possibility of the animal/environment carrying salmonella, campylobacter etc - a big issue if there are small children in the household.

I agree this is a risk to people if not handled correctly - as with all fresh meat products. It does not stop most people buying and preparing meat for their own dinner! For dogs, there is little risk - the immune system of a dog is not the same as ours, which is why they are able to cope with eating disgusting things like faeces without an issue. The stomach pH is acidic enough to kill off harmful bugs, unless your animal is immune compromised. Again, I find this is fear-mongering perpetuated by the pet food companies.

Thus, generally, most people should be encouraged to feed a commercial diet but be made aware of the problems, especially dental disease.

I disagree and have a several dogs including a very healthy 10 year old Vizsla who has been raw fed since puppyhood as my 'proof'. Isn't this the issue - the 'proof'? There is very little scientific evidence to support raw feeding, since there is no money to be made from this research. I think we owe it to our clients to become informed, independently about raw feedingm rather than just suggest they feed raw because we can't educate them about it ourself. Far easier to grab a bag of 'lifestage' Hills off the shelf.....

However, if an owner IS determined to feed a raw diet, and does it well, in an appropriate breed (ie must have decent teeth conformation and a strong jaw) then it can have some health benefits.

Raw feeding has huge benefits. The evidence is there if you look. Too much to document here! If a dog does not have good tooth conformation and a strong jaw it isn't an 'appropriate' breed at all! But that is an entirely different debate :) Raw food is better digested, contains good bacteria and a wealth of micro nutrients. Processed food is sterile, relies heavily on grain sources and has to have nutrients added back to it. If there was a 'complete food' for humans, would you eat that all your life? No, because even if it was researched and backed up by science, your instincts would tell you that it is fundamentally wrong to cut fresh foods out of your diet.

http://evolveanimalnutrition.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/raw-diet-research-finally.html?spref=fb

As with everything, a moderate, knowledgeable approach is best but many people won't entertain any opinion other than their own (rwa diet feeding can cause pretty heated debates) - hence my picture posted above. I hope it didn't annoy you- it was only meant to make you smile!

I agree - do your own research, don't blindly swallow everything pet food reps tell you. I have been 'researching' raw diets for many years. If done correctly (and it isn't rocket science!!) the benefits are huge and can be life-changing for pets. Educate yourself, so that you can then educate owners in an unbiased way and do the best for your patients.

[/quote]

Re: Raw diets

Emma Bartlett — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 00:13:13 GMT

I feed my dogs raw and I make sure I feed a wide variety of meats and bones from a few different sources (not ready prepared raw). I tend to direct people towards Honey's http://honeysrealdogfood.com/about.php as they have a vet who can advise on raw feeding for specific conditions and they also do a nice easy to understand book which is a really good read and they don't push people into ordering.

Another good source of information is Nick Thompson http://holisticvet.co.uk/index.php/nutrition/ i went to one of his day workshops called Natural Nutrition for Dogs & Cats (which i saw advertised at BVNA congress) and i found this to be very inspiring and made me feel less worried about getting raw feeding wrong. There was no bad mouthing kibble or people who wanted to feed kibble which i found refreshing.

I also have a friend who has been feeding a raw home prepared renal diet and her dog is doing really well on this

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Oct 2013 08:25:32 GMT

[quote user="Lisa Goodship"]Premium pet foods that we sell and recommend in our vet practices eg Hills also contains Vitamin supplements and various extras like 'rosemary extract' which also claim to be balanced!! Many people who have a balanced diet, also admit to adding extras vitamins and minerals into their diet on a daily basis! I cannot see any reason not to add a natural ingredient to a food if there has been research to show benefits of adding it. [/quote]

Sorry - obviously didn't explain myself fully.

I have no problem with giving any supplement you want to. What frustrates me is the contradiction - saying the diet is 'natural' and 'balanced' and then adding ingredients in order to make it balanced or attractive to the owner - the same as all commercial diets do! Surely the point of feeding RMB is to feed the 'natural' diets that people perceive the dog would 'normally' eat. They certainly wouldn't get a plastic pack of ground up meat and bone with added cranberries in the wild!

Re: Raw diets

Louise B — Thu, 03 Oct 2013 04:38:31 GMT

One thing to be aware of is that lots of raw food feeders - myself included - don't buy pre-prepared raw food diets. This is especially true of multiple dog owners once they get a bit of experience. So, if you get sick dogs that are on raw food it is worth asking where the meat came from. In some cases it may not have gone through an abbattoir and been inspected for meat quality, presence of hyatid cysts, etc (though most will have).

I feed a bit of kibble (always on standby for when I am too busy - I am not a dire hard raw foodie ), there is always a tub on the kitchen worktop that almost all leftovers get chucked into everyday to feed to the dogs but then the bulk of their food comes from whatever gets left over from the pig and lambs that go to market that week. A friend gives me bags of 'bits' - basically everything not sold at market: meaty bones, 1/2 heads, muscle meat scraps, lungs, heart, liver, etc. Basically, once a week I spend a couple of hours dissecting, preparing and then freezing the scraps into daily 'packs'. All bones get sorted into various categories: suitable for big dogs, small dogs, cats and unsafe/too small (the latter get slow cooked to obtain all the meat/marrow from these too) but this is a bit flexible as you get to know what sort of bones each dog can cope with e.g. big dogs that gulp things down need big bones that force them to chew, whereas another big dog could eat chicken wings safely. I then add some grated or blended vegetables +/- raw eggs +/- leftovers +/- anything else really. I never aim to balance the diet with each meal and you kind of 'get a feel' for how much bone to feed as you quickly get obsessed with faecal quality and quantity . I feed my dogs most days - but not all - and the amount fed to them varies daily. Overall, on average I feed about 1 - 3% of bodyweight / day - with elderly dogs closer to 1%, underweight around 3% and young active adult neuters around 2%. I don't add a vit/mineral supplement and I don't obsess about ca/p ratio (though I would if I had growing dogs!). As I said before, the main issue I get is excessively worn or # teeth but I feed load bearing bones, I sometimes feed them frozen (especially in hot weather) and I sometimes feed too many bones. If clients dogs have white or pale crumbly faeces they are feeding too much bone at any one meal and, anecdotally, increasing their risk of obstruction. I guess I have developed a bit of an eye for what I can get away with really.

I try to ensure that most meat fed to the dogs is frozen for a few days first to try and remove some of the bacterial load (not sure if this is successful). Even commercial raw diets have been shown to contain more bacteria than dry, though some dry foods were also shown to be contaminated with pathogenic bacteria e.g. e coli on a routine lab inspection (though at lower levels). If bacteria is a concern but clients want to feed a homemade raw diet, a compromise is to get the client to briefly fry the raw meat to sear (cook) the surface of the meat. The bulk of the bacterial load is on the surface so this is a useful way to reduce bacterial load and can be considered for the dire-hard raw foodie who might have an animal that would be at greater risk from the negative aspects of raw food feedie (i.e. immuno-compromised, dogs that have recently had a dental, GI tract surgery, etc).

Raw food animals also secrete more pathogenic bacteria in their faeces so this is something to be aware of if nursing raw fed dogs/cats or if clients want to continue to feed raw to their hospitalised pet. However, we should be treating all faecal material as potentially pathogenic anyway really so good hygiene should eliminate risk

If people want to add a vit/min supplement then they are better off to add a human broad spectrum one rather than one aimed at the pet market. According to veterinary nutritionists in the USA (so may differ slightly), the ones aimed at the pet market are not adequate in most cases. Use a human one that contains no more than 200% of recommended RDA of any nutrient and then feed according to size. I cannot remember the exact figure.

I am actually in the process of wading through all the scientific literature relating to this topic so watch this space

Re: Raw diets

Lisa Goodship — Thu, 03 Oct 2013 03:12:06 GMT

Premium pet foods that we sell and recommend in our vet practices eg Hills also contains Vitamin supplements and various extras like 'rosemary extract' which also claim to be balanced!! Many people who have a balanced diet, also admit to adding extras vitamins and minerals into their diet on a daily basis! I cannot see any reason not to add a natural ingredient to a food if there has been research to show benefits of adding it. Walthams have a good article on the benefits of green lip muscle.

http://www.waltham.com/document/nutrition/dog/dog-joint-health/265/

If people are worried about the 'chewing' benefit they can always add the odd bone to a diet or clean there dogs teeth with a brush, lots of animals on dry food, don't chew it anyway!!

Try and get a rep in who sells raw food diets, so you can get their opinion and understand the pros and cons of their food so you are able to give advice to clients who can then make an informed decision on what diet is best to feed their pet.

If all else fails I've heard Dr Goggle is sound at giving advice!!

Re: Raw diets

Dove — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 23:05:46 GMT

Thank you Gillian, much more constructive ;-)

I guess its like the the feeding debates on parenting forums!

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 22:53:01 GMT

As was said a few posts above, the problem with these commercial packaged raw diets is that they are ground - which means that the main benefit, chewing, is significantly reduced. A lot of them also contain various 'un-natural' ingredients, like cranberries (for urinary health ) green lipped mussels (not many wild canines eat those!) and vitamin and mineral supplements (why - I thought they were balanced diets ). I have to admit to being very skeptical - they are jumping on the 'raw foods' band wagon in order to sell their diets, but with limited benefits over any other commercial diet. If you want the benefits of a raw diet, you really need to feed raw meaty bones - and take the resultant risks with it.

Re: Raw diets

Lisa Goodship — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 22:36:02 GMT

http://www.ziwipeak.com/

http://rawessentials.co.nz/

http://www.k9natural.com/

These are options available for people who want to feed commercial 'raw' diets, so freeze dried etc, without the concerns as mentioned above!

Above are a few diets here in NZ which are quite popular, one thing we have to advise clients is slow transition, because of the higher protein content they can be prone to diarrhea to start with, but have quite a few people happy on it.

Re: Raw diets

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 22:14:51 GMT

The problem is that people have such differing views on what is 'natural' and 'normal' that it is hard to find a compromise.

My own opinion: nutritional diseases are now very rare in dogs and cats, where they were very common many years ago. (hypervit A in cats, rickets in dogs etc). This is due to well balanced commercial diets. Unfortunately the simple fact is that most pet owners cannot be trusted to formulate a good, varied, balanced diet - anyone who treats birds/rabbits/reptiles knows that we are still seeing nutritional issues with these species because owners need to put together a good, varied, healthy diet for these species and the majority of owners always end up being too lazy, or allow their animals to become selective eaters. People who feed raw also need to be aware of the public health issues due to the possibility of the animal/environment carrying salmonella, campylobacter etc - a big issue if there are small children in the household. Thus, generally, most people should be encouraged to feed a commercial diet but be made aware of the problems, especially dental disease. However, if an owner IS determined to feed a raw diet, and does it well, in an appropriate breed (ie must have decent teeth conformation and a strong jaw) then it can have some health benefits.

Re: Raw diets

Dove — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 20:59:46 GMT

Thank you for the replies, I've only fed my pets commerial dry diets and am happy with it. The pre freeze packs sound a better compromise for those wanting to follow this route. Equally there are clients I want to say no you can't just fed x you need to consider how to balance it with x,y, z. And some that won't have any dedication and it really isn't the correct route at all.

Re: Raw diets

nursenat — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 20:49:42 GMT

Hi Dove, I've been successfully feeding my cats a raw diet for the past 4 years & personally would never go back to feeding them a commercial diet. Being a busy individual I don't have the time to faff about & make up my own recipes, making sure they're balanced etc so I use a raw food company which does it for me! The best one I've found is: http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/Cat-Food/ I love how their food is complete & comes in individual servings so you just need to take out from freezer, thaw out and serve! And nothing goes to waste. Their website has a lot of info on feeding a BARF diet for people to have a read & there's also a Yahoo group devoted to raw feeding which offer lots of info & advice to individuals looking to switch to feeding raw: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/rawfeeding/info.

Re: Raw diets

Louise B — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 20:44:22 GMT

I feed a lot of raw food and find the dogs do really well on it - glossy coats, loads of energy, tiny, firm stools and good breath. The only issue I have had is over worn or broken teeth but this is because I feed some load bearing type bones (steer clients away from ) and give them too many (to be honest!). The raw food people don't even agree on what should be fed. They basically fall into two broad camps: BARF (dogs are omnivorous, inc. starch sources, key author: Ian Billinghurst) or Raw meaty bones / prey animal model (avoid starch sources as un-natural; key author: Tom Lonsdale). Another popular author is Ann Ridyard. There are lots of companies now that produce raw diets in which the bone is already provided is a minced form and the diet is already balanced (to one ideology or another - as I said, they don't agree!) - although these remove one of the key benefits of a raw diet - clean teeth - so many raw food peeps prefer to feed at least some whole bones.

Re: Raw diets

Julie — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 20:40:38 GMT

To be honest, it is a bit of a mine-field. I think that someone called Steph (sorry if it isn't her name) feeds her cats raw so she might be along to answer if she is still on here.

I tend to be a bit lazy and buy it already pre-packed so any of the following for my cats:

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/

http://www.naturesmenu.co.uk/

http://www.purrform.co.uk/

I will try and dig out any info I have about raw feeding but it might take a day or two. Is it just cats that you are interested in?