Tail docking

Re: Tail docking

Clawedjird — Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:01:08 GMT

In over 2 decades in practice mostly in a rural area with a large shooting community, I have only personally observed one case of a dog that sufficiently injured its tail that it required amputation. It was a working lab but the injury occurred in the home due to an exceesively waggy tail. Ampuatation was only considered as despite repeated dressing he keep reopneing the wound. Have I seen other tail injuries, absolutely, they always look spectacular due to the high blood supply to the tail combined with a waggy tail that spreads the blood in a magnificent spray, they were, however, mostly minor that healed easily and quickly. If the argument for tail docking is prevent potential injury and suffering then we should probably consider ear cropping too, to prevent grass seeds in all those floppy eared dogs. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but nothing will convince me that docking is anything other than mutilation for cosmetic sake

Re: Tail docking

Charlotte K — Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:14:38 GMT

I have had working cocker spaniels since a young age and all were docked. I now have a 3 year old who was not docked because she was born in Scotland and she injured her tail in the kennel end of last summer! Her tail was always banging off things so following her injury, her tail was amputated. She was very distressed and is still conscious of her tail being touched now and her balance was affected for a while after surgery. All of that could have been avoided had she been docked at a young age!

Re: Tail docking

Emma Purnell — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:58:39 GMT

Interesting one today - 12wk old puppy in with owner asking if we would dock it as she is going to make it a working dog and it hadn't been done yet...

Re: Tail docking

Helen Tottey — Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:15:24 GMT

I did say "appeared not to be painful".

Also, I am not trying to promote tail docking at all, the question that started this thread was about the LEGAL issues and not the ethical/moral one

Re: Tail docking

Selena Carnell — Sun, 09 Jun 2013 19:01:43 GMT

True Sal, wonder how many of us have seen working dog injuries? Stitch ups etc yes but don't think I have ever seen a tail injury.. Only the standard door, RTA etc.

Re: Tail docking

Sal the 1st — Sat, 08 Jun 2013 22:28:04 GMT

[quote user="Helen Tottey"]

There is a criteria for "working" and the breeds that can be docked. You have to have proof of pedigree on the bitch so no cross breeds can be docked even if they are working.

[/quote]

I remember this when I looked into it and have to say I found it laughable - I used to have working dogs labs and spaniels - my spaniels were never docked, and with only one exception we never had any tail injuries ( and that was caused when the dog got its tail caught in the tailgate of the pickup, so not exactly an accident in the field.)

Many people who shoot do not have pedigree dogs - and with good reason, they dont want the problems that come with pedigree dogs.

Re: Tail docking

Cloudy Weather — Sat, 08 Jun 2013 20:24:53 GMT

I think its important to remember that there are very subtle signs to pain and just because because we do not hear an animal whimper and cry does not mean it is not suffering, suffering after all is extremely subjective. There has been suggestion that neonates are unable to express certain displays of pain, this has been suggested more so in predator animals as prey animals develop faster - a study on lambs has indicated tail docking to be painful across all age groups.

There are in fact numerous studies which suggest neonates do feel pain. For example an expert on animal pain from the University of Birmingham Centre for Biomedical Ethics, ‘very young animals are likely to feel more pain than older animals’. There is also a concern of long-term pain caused by tail docking due to soft tissue damage, a study on mice suggested that cutting the tail tip increases the sensitivity to pain not only at the tip, but the tail as a whole due to hyperalgesia.

There is a lot of information out there and everyone is entitled to their own personal view but as vet nurses we need to be able to back up our professional comments need to be back up with evidence. I personally have not seen any reliable evidence to suggest this process is not painful.

Re: Tail docking

Helen Tottey — Sat, 08 Jun 2013 18:29:45 GMT

[quote user="Celine"]

Interesting - just to be pedantic / nosy, does this mean the puppies were chipped at 1-3 days old too? Just curious..

[/quote]

Not at all nosy, I should have made it clear - NO we chipped them at 1st vac but the paperwork states must be chipped before going to home so I guess some are chipped earlier. Although how you can identify which puppy has what number in it I will never know!

I will get shot I am sure for saying this - but I was surprised how easy and non painful the process appeared to be. The puppies (there were 4) cried more when taken from Mom and didn't cry at all when the tail was docked.

Re: Tail docking

Celine — Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:22:00 GMT

Interesting - just to be pedantic / nosy, does this mean the puppies were chipped at 1-3 days old too? Just curious..

Re: Tail docking

Helen Tottey — Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:15:12 GMT

[quote user="Claire 'Duke' York"]

Can anyone help - what is the law regarding tail dockings? trying to settle a debate in practice

I was under the impression that a docked dog must go to an owner with a shotgun license (ie a working home?) but not 100% on this.

What do we do if we have a docked puppy in that has been sold to a non working home?

Do we report it? If so, who to?

[/quote]

Hi. I researched this loads a couple of years ago and we spoke to VDS and took advice from RCVS too. To legally dock the breeder has to match certain criteria and part of that is that the puppies have a "reasonable chance" of going to working home. This then becomes the decision of the practice docking the tails but at the same time, it is not the vets fault is some of the puppies end up in pet homes. So long as the vet can defend the decision to dock and the puppies are chipped with all the relevant paper work that has to go with each puppy, then you can dock tails. There is a criteria for "working" and the breeds that can be docked. You have to have proof of pedigree on the bitch so no cross breeds can be docked even if they are working.

The issue for vets really comes with "reasonable doubt". The puppies we docked belonged to a game keeper who had a shot gun licence but we also had to see proof he was a game keeper (letter from land owner supporting this). He had to tell us he had working homes for 3 possibly 4 of the puppies. Each puppy then left his home with a document that has to be presented to the new owners vet, showing that legal docking has taken place. Even if a puppy enters a normal home there will be proof they were legally docked at the time (1-3 days old)

I had very mixed views on the procedure but having gone through this, if you follow it legally, there is nothing that can go wrong for the vet

Re: Tail docking

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:43:26 GMT

RCVS has an advice note on client confidentiality: http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/an20-client-confidentiality/

Re: Tail docking

Claire Cameron — Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:02:37 GMT

That's fab! thank you

Is anyone a BVA member who could let me know what it says about '

advice on client confidentiality should members be presented with a docked litter or puppy

It's member only access so can't see :) thanks x

Re: Tail docking

Sandra Nicoll — Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:51:19 GMT

Guidance from the BVA:

http://www.bva.co.uk/atoz/Tail_docking_of_dogs.aspx

The docking of dogs' tails has been banned in

England, Wales and Northern Ireland except for certain working dogs or when the procedure is needed for medical purposes under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 and the relevant docking of working dogs' tails regulations.
Scotland, without any exemption for working dogs, under the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006.

Hope this helps!

Sandra