Fur coat and no knickers!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:42:47 GMT

Looks interesting book that will look into it when good old cash allows. MissVn best time in your case is when you are unconcious but ask your Dr as you must have had blood tests done in the past if he knows your blood group.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Claire Cameron — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:37:28 GMT

[quote user="StephB"]

Anyone here ever read the book 'Eat Right for Your Blood Type'?

http://www.dadamo.com/

VERY interesting reading. would also blow some vegan and veggie's minds. My aunt read it last year and started the recommended diet for her blood type. She was diabetic and over weight before she started it. She lost 30lbs in a year and is no longer diabetic.

Some humans are just meant to eat meat! Some are not. Some are meant to eat both!

[/quote]

Looks very very interesting Steph, would love to try it but as soon as anyone comes near me with a needle I'm passed out on the floor

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Anonymous — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:30:55 GMT

Anyone here ever read the book 'Eat Right for Your Blood Type'?

http://www.dadamo.com/

Some humans are just meant to eat meat! Some are not. Some are meant to eat both!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

jan — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:11:47 GMT

presumably if there was no profit in keeping them we'd stop producing (breeding ) them. The last hanging on meaties could eat the remainder & any left could die of old age in a tourist attraction style farm. The bunnys & horses could graze the grass, if there is any left after we've finished building new suburbs. Seriously it isn't going to happen. As my mother says if your aunt had b*lls she'd be your uncle Isnt going to happen! :)

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:01:34 GMT

Just curious.

I am interested what vegans/veggies would suggest should be done about animal and countryside management, if everyone was veggie. We only have our 'green pastures' and well maintained countryside because of farmers. Otherwise it would all revert to an overgrown 'jungle' in the short-term, and then woodland in a few hundred years. We would no longer have our easy access to our own countryside. Would that be better?

Secondly, who will care for all our animals? Do we just kill all domestic animals? Cos they can't care for themselves. And I doubt any government organisation or charity will be rushing forward to do it. No more sheep, pigs, cows, turkeys, domestic fowl etc.... in our countryside.

Just curious.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Claire Cameron — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:44:42 GMT

[quote user="StephB"]

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but now the topic has changed to vegetarianism i feel i have to

I am an omnivore, I eat ONLY free range meat and eggs and ensure the welfare of the animals comes first before price when I purchase meat.

My younger brother's ex girlfriend decided she wouldnt speak to me because I ate meat......because its cruel. on discussing this with her I discovered she ate battery eggs

Personally I believe we have canine teeth for a reason, but if you choose to be a vegetarian then I hold your decision very highly, I would never say you are wrong or ask you to eat meat.

My brothers ex girlfriend had done no research into the meat industry whatsoever and said she thought it was "cruel". However she dumped two rats (that her and my brother owner when they lived together) on our doorstop in a small box in the rain, her pets are fed a terrible diet, are obese and dont get walked....in my opinion this is cruel

[/quote]

makes your blood boil don't it!

[/quote]

hell yeah, just a bit, I used to discuss this with her and she wouldnt have anything said, all her answers every were "well its cruel to eat meat" arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:15:31 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but now the topic has changed to vegetarianism i feel i have to

I am an omnivore, I eat ONLY free range meat and eggs and ensure the welfare of the animals comes first before price when I purchase meat.

My younger brother's ex girlfriend decided she wouldnt speak to me because I ate meat......because its cruel. on discussing this with her I discovered she ate battery eggs

Personally I believe we have canine teeth for a reason, but if you choose to be a vegetarian then I hold your decision very highly, I would never say you are wrong or ask you to eat meat.

[/quote]

makes your blood boil don't it!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Claire Cameron — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:34:08 GMT

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but now the topic has changed to vegetarianism i feel i have to

I am an omnivore, I eat ONLY free range meat and eggs and ensure the welfare of the animals comes first before price when I purchase meat.

My younger brother's ex girlfriend decided she wouldnt speak to me because I ate meat......because its cruel. on discussing this with her I discovered she ate battery eggs

Personally I believe we have canine teeth for a reason, but if you choose to be a vegetarian then I hold your decision very highly, I would never say you are wrong or ask you to eat meat.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:21:26 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

I feel that if a vegan/veggie expects me to cook them whatever vice versa so we will have to disgaree on that.

Also disagree on force rearing kids as vegans/veggies should have informed choice. To turn that round do you agree with female circumcision or male come to that.

On my other questions re plant pain, wild animals/nature, cats diet. Am awaiting replies!!! tappity tappity tap.(foot tapping)

As to above on dairy cows some interesting points there l did not know but also not all farms are like that. Watched a prog on a large american one cows had no stalls could walk around with lots of space/cow also lie down with space if wanted. had auto wash and brush areas and were self milk.. chose when to get milked this helped them a lot it was a laser guided auto machine to milk them. Did not seperate them from the herd.

Sorry now off to bed staring at 17:00 till 03:30 and want some sleep...May log on from work if have a chance but probably wont reply as wont be in think mode.

[/quote]

What drives me batty is when some 'vegetarians' don't do their research and are more interested in just not eating meat and forget to supplement correctly. they then get pregnant and don't eat well and end up with babies with bone difficiancies and skull deformities. :( my partner's sister in law is one of them. Her husband is veggie because she's veggie and sneaks meat when he can. the child is not offered any meat and has a deformed skull. really winds me up but i can't do a damn thing about it. :(

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:18:19 GMT

[quote user="Louisesadieandshads"]

[quote user="StephB"]Dairy cows and Beef cows especially are some of the most spoiled animals in the UK and US these days because of the new regulations that have been put into place in the last 8 yrs of protesters and consumers not being happy about the treatment of them.[/quote]

I am not sure that that is really true to be honest. I cannot say that I have many problems with beef farming (I went to observe them at field, market and slaughter and did not feel that the welfare issues were that bad) but I do have problems with dairy farming. I think it is pretty well recognised that dairy cow welfare in the Uk (as elsewhere) is not very good in many respects. The average number of lactations is low (its not my area of interest so I am not sure if 3 lactatations is too low - I seem to recall from my studies that 3-4 was the average), but there are other welfare problems such as:

1. Lameness (huge problem)

2. Hock lesions (big problem) (pressure-sore type injuries)

3. Lack of analgesia to treat the above due the need for milk withdrawal

4. Not enough space to lie down in (many cows have cubicle type beds - a corridor divided up into cow sized bed areas with dividers in between and a walkway down the middle) as these sheds were largely built to house friesians and not the much large X's and Holsteins commonly used today so the cows either a) stand up too long or b) lie at an uncomfortable angle (with their bums hanging out into the slurry filled walkway)

5. Too great a milk yield causing:

a) greater udder discomfort between milking (reducing ability of cow to lie down so they are having to stand on already sore feet)

b) Redeployment of their resources into milk production - cows are often in a negative nitrogen balance due to lack of adequate nutrition (even with concentrates they cannot consume sufficient food to maintain good bodily condition as they are restricted by rumen capacity) so they often have a poor body condition score (this is compounded by the fact that they are made pregnant again before they finish lactating inorder to ensure that they produce the maximum amount of milk).

6. Distress from having their calves taken away from them (this is well acknowledged)

Milk production is associated with alot of suffering!

[/quote]

I was basing my remark on the standards today vs 8 yrs ago. I know they are still not amazing but honestly what live stock industry is?

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Louise B — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:12:22 GMT

[quote user="heather mac"]

And as a farm gal I would say I have issues with the mass produced chicken and milk,but as I say its not solely the farmers 'fault'.

[/quote]

Agreed!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Mac Feather — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:28:14 GMT

And as a farm gal I would say I have issues with the mass produced chicken and milk,but as I say its not solely the farmers 'fault'.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Mac Feather — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:25:40 GMT

Well as I keep harping on- it is us the consumer that keeps making the demands! We are the ones fuelling the problem with our desire for cheap food. Cheap yes, but at what cost?

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:17:56 GMT

I feel that if a vegan/veggie expects me to cook them whatever vice versa so we will have to disgaree on that.

Also disagree on force rearing kids as vegans/veggies should have informed choice. To turn that round do you agree with female circumcision or male come to that.

On my other questions re plant pain, wild animals/nature, cats diet. Am awaiting replies!!! tappity tappity tap.(foot tapping)

Sorry now off to bed staring at 17:00 till 03:30 and want some sleep...May log on from work if have a chance but probably wont reply as wont be in think mode.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Louise B — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:39:27 GMT

1. Lameness (huge problem)

2. Hock lesions (big problem) (pressure-sore type injuries)

3. Lack of analgesia to treat the above due the need for milk withdrawal

5. Too great a milk yield causing:

a) greater udder discomfort between milking (reducing ability of cow to lie down so they are having to stand on already sore feet)

6. Distress from having their calves taken away from them (this is well acknowledged)

Milk production is associated with alot of suffering!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Louise B — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:25:07 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

Then there was a discussion on here not long ago (but couldn't find it) about kids and forcing them to become veggies let alone vegans. Even the veggies said that was wrong, children had to decide and that they needed the protein to much to allow diet specialisation in kids.And that was just to veggie not the extremes of vegans.

[/quote]

I wish I had seem that thread. IF I ever have kids it is my plan to bring them up as vegans precisely so that they don't develop a taste for meat. I actually don't have a problem with eating meat but I do have a strong objection to factory farming. As most meat that people eat derives precisely from that quarter (and is likely to become even more so given demands on the world's resources) I want my children to grow up without having developed a palate for meat as I think this will aid them to live a more 'ethical' life by hopefully reducing their temptation to buy 'cheap meat'. (I just wish I could manage it and stop falling of the wagon for Maccy-Dees). I think it is perfectly possible to rear children on a vegan diet - there are plenty of vegan families around who demonstrate that principle.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Louise B — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:18:24 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

And (leaving aside kids) if your spouse eats and enjoys meat they should be allowed to do so and not forced not to. A marriage should be give and take, not l hate it so you can not have it.

As a meat eater l have no problems expecting a veggie friend to cook me a steak anymore than they would expecting me to cook them a veggie meal. Apart from the fact that noone willingly eats my cooking!.

[/quote]

Hi, I think there is an additional tier of complexity to this then you post suggests Caro. Vegans/veggies largely believe that it is wrong/immoral to eat meat therefore, by serving meat to a visitor, some veggies/vegans would feel that they are acting immorally.

I had this argument with my mother once as she felt that vegans should cook meat for meat-eating friends because 'being a good host means giving your visitors what they like'. I pointed out that that meant that I should offer up little boys if my visitors are paedophiles. She went ballistic saying that that was repugnant thinking and that it was clearly immoral to do so which is when I pointed out that that is how vegans (especially) feel about the killing of animals for meat. I guess what I am saying is meat eaters should accept that this is one of the ethical rules that vegans live by. Its not the same as saying 'meat eaters cook veggie meals for visiting vegans, therefore vegans should cook meat for visiting meat eaters' . I presume there are no meat eaters that eat meat and avoid veggies because they think it is ethical to eat meat and unethical to eat veggies!!!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:10:15 GMT

Diane if you feel that way how do you reconcile animals like cats that are obligate carnivores or do you feel they should be only fed vegetarian because you disagree with killing animals. How about wild animals and their needs. If you see a lion stalking a buck do you hate it for killing or accept it needs to eat.

Then there is land that is destroyed from growing veg. Even organic growing will kill animals even if only worms. Modern tests now show that plants have feelings and you are still killing them, causing pain to them, how do you reconcile that.

And (leaving aside kids) if your spouse eats and enjoys meat they should be allowed to do so and not forced not to. A marriage should be give and take, not l hate it so you can not have it.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Diane Westwood — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:01:22 GMT

I just had to add, I wish you could see my wardrobe - I've never been in next and top shop. I get my gear from outdoor clothing shops and anything 'posh' comes from the ethnic shop.

Most of my wardrobe is dog walking gear - when I dress up my friends don't recognise me.....

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Diane Westwood — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:44:12 GMT

I became vegan 27 years ago, and started vet nursing in 1985. Yes I have been to dairy farms, and seen for myself the distress that calves and cows are in when separated. When I pointed this out, the farmer agreed and said it was one of the hardest parts of his job! I've not been to a tannery (whats the point it is where skins are processed). I have been to an arctic fox fur farm in Birmingham in the 1980's.

I'm not a big PETA fan, although on their premarin campaign I did street stalls, days of action, leafleting at horse shows, and the usual letter writing and petitions.

I cut and paste the info from the VIVA! web site - I couldn't have put it better.

I don't have dead animals in my cooker, fridge or freezer and having been veggie since the age of 5 would feel physically sick cooking animals. How anyone could expect a veggie friend to cook meat for them is beyond me.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:24:18 GMT

[quote user="Diane Westwood"]

Leather is an important by-product of the meat and dairy industry – earning nearly £600m every year in the UK. It comes mainly from cattle and despite the seemingly idyllic scenes of cows in fields, these only represent a small part of the life of beef and dairy cows – both of whom are used for leather. Beef cows are bred simply to eat, get big and die. Dairy cows are among the most exploited animals on the planet. Like all mammals cows only produce milk when they have offspring, so to increase productivity a dairy cow’s life is a constant cycle of pregnancy and lactation. As well as this huge physical strain, the cows suffer immense mental distress. After being allowed to suckle her colostrum – the first milk produced by the mother – within days of being born their calves are taken away to maximise the amount of milk available to humans. Female calves may follow the same fate as their mums but many male calves, unable to produce milk and too scrawny for beef, are killed. A ‘productive’ dairy cow will supply 12,000 litres of milk a year – an unnatural amount 10 times more than her calf could require. Such an excessive burden leads to protruding pelvic and rib bones, constant hunger and massively distended udders. The energy dairy cows lose is so great, most only manage three lactations before being killed.

The production of leather also has specific cruelty issues: soft leather does not come from old cows but calves, and the softest leather of all comes from unborn calves whose mothers have been slaughtered; as well as the environmental destruction of the meat industry the treatment of animal hides is a major source of pollution in itself; people who work in tanneries suffer from the exposure to the toxic chemicals used; zebra, salmon, kangaroos, seals, crocodiles, snakes, lizards, ostriches, dolphins, toads…whatever the animal, if it’s got a skin there’s a human somewhere who’ll want to wear it. The exotic leather market isn’t as glamorous for the animals involved – many having little protection and some can also be endangered.

* For more info on leather production and cruelty-free alternatives get the Vegetarian & Vegan Foundation’s free factsheet Hell For Leather by calling 0117 970 5190 or email info@vegetarian.org.uk. Also check out the More info section for leather-free links.

[/quote]

Have you actually been to a dairy farm or tannery? Or are you just cut and pasting this information from a PETA sponsored website? Dairy cows and Beef cows especially are some of the most spoiled animals in the UK and US these days because of the new regulations that have been put into place in the last 8 yrs of protesters and consumers not being happy about the treatment of them. I would be more worried about the Premarin horses if you really want something to complain about. Where the foals are just slung over the side of the stall to die or just hung to death so they can collect from the mares. I actually used to be a fairy active animal rights person in the US when I was in school. Protested on a numerous occations and was even arrested at the Gillete Plant in Boston for trying to protect the bunnies. I dated a vegan for 3 yrs and since then he has changed his tune about leather too after doing some proper research. He still no longer eats meat and most animal products and continues to support the activist that are educated and not just reading heresay that join bandwagons they really haven't done any personal research themselves on. I agree there have been some real horror stories with cattle as will any kept animal but to see the amount of change and progression in the industry to improve this, is commendable and should be recognised. There are other much worse industries to be scrutinising. Chickens for instance. Sugar and the clothes on your back from Topshop and Next...

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

wobbliebob — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:50:38 GMT

completely agree with heather and would also love to have a bit of land. Also, i really like hugh F.W and have not bought a cheap chicken since the chicken out programme.

I also think that people are very removed from what they eat, as mentioned before beef does'nt just appear on the shelve.

I also eat alot of allotment grown veg and its wonderful (good job my dad has green fingers)

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Mac Feather — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:14:25 GMT

I want a couple of pigs but dont think Charlie will let me!! When I was younger we had a few Tamworths over the years,great pigs!

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:36:55 GMT

I agree Heather, and the guy in the programme said pretty much the same as you.It's all down to demand.

Personally I would love to have my own wee bit of Scotland, and have a few pigs etc of my own.But unless I win the lottery then thats no gonna happen.

Re: Fur coat and no knickers!

Mac Feather — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:21:00 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

Just watched the pig programme, the girl was a right moaner.They guy got on mch better, he seemed to throw himself into it a bit better than her.

I have to say though, although it has not put me off eating bacon, I think I might just be going for the organic bacon from now on. I did not like the intense rearing and living conditions at all, I actually felt sorry for them not seeing the outside world, and not having much room to move around and play like the organic ones.

I was surprised at how easily they went down too with the stun machine,I thought there would have been a lot more fighting on the pigs part.

Very thought provoking programme

[/quote]

I think some other bacon producing countries have poor standards.

It all comes down to consumer demand- we all want cheap food, but at what cost to the animal? So basically in my view we the consumers are to blame. And remember the farmers producing the stuff such as milk etc are getting very little return for their work.