Compulsory Microchipping

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

JaneRVN — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:27:39 GMT

The commitment to care is not going to change - it would be the same as treating any unknown/unowned animals now. I dont see wht an unchipped dog would be treated any worse than any stray is now.

I suppose it could be raised that the 7 day minimum remains in place for unidentified animals. If a dog is chipped and the details arent up to date it usually takes longer than 7 days to make phone calls and send recorded delivery mail to an address and visit it!

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:46:48 GMT

[quote user="Susan Jackson"]You can also add: that if it is required that unchipped pets are reported by vets, will that mean unchipped dogs will suffer unnecessarily?[/quote]

Surely they'd have to be given emergency treatment regardless of chip status? We couldn't be expected to withold tx - could we????? That'd be terrible.

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Susan Jackson — Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:17:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Just to add to the discussion, here is a summary of the key issues that have been raised over on vetsurgeon.org:

A summary of (hopefully) all the points raised so far:

What is going to happen to the companies that currently sell chips?
Will vets be able to charge for implanting?
If vets are not able to charge for implanting, why should they give their time for free?
Does offering free chips actually do anything to promote responsible pet ownership, as the Government hopes? After all, if you can't afford a £15 chip, should you own a dog?
What about the quality of the free chips?
What proof of ownership will be required at the time of microchipping?
How will it be policed?
What problem will microchipping solve (will it have any impact on dangerous dogs, for example)?
What about cats? How will it reflect on the practice when an owner comes in with a cat and a dog, and only the dog is free?
What about issues of client confidentiality when reporting a pet that has been brought in for treatment, unchipped?

[/quote]

You can also add: that if it is required that unchipped pets are reported by vets, will that mean unchipped dogs will suffer unnecessarily?

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 17:16:37 GMT

Just to add to the discussion, here is a summary of the key issues that have been raised over on vetsurgeon.org:

A summary of (hopefully) all the points raised so far:

What is going to happen to the companies that currently sell chips?
Will vets be able to charge for implanting?
If vets are not able to charge for implanting, why should they give their time for free?
Does offering free chips actually do anything to promote responsible pet ownership, as the Government hopes? After all, if you can't afford a £15 chip, should you own a dog?
What about the quality of the free chips?
What proof of ownership will be required at the time of microchipping?
How will it be policed?
What problem will microchipping solve (will it have any impact on dangerous dogs, for example)?
What about cats? How will it reflect on the practice when an owner comes in with a cat and a dog, and only the dog is free?
What about issues of client confidentiality when reporting a pet that has been brought in for treatment, unchipped?

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

JaneRVN — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:18:04 GMT

Just to put minds at rest.

There is a working committe guiding DEFRA and the database companies and the RCVS. They met this week and are a pretty formidablebunch! It has given me hope that by 2016 the scheme will be what we and the clients need it to be.

Please use the link above to feedback and give the VN opinion. I have had to highlight to several people that it is rarely the vet that deals with the chip companies anf paperwork. It si the VNs. We need our input more than anyones.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Helen Tottey — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:11:57 GMT

[quote user="Katie Mansfield"]

Who microchips their dogs? Responsible breeders, responsible owners and responsible welfare charities. Who doesn't? Irresponsible ppl. And don't let's forget that it costs money to change your details,.....

[/quote]

i workd with an Italian vet who says the goverment pay the vets to ensure all pets are microchipped. the police can scan any dog seen at anytime (ie even when with an owner) and if not chipped they are in trouble....... would be nice to think that system would work here but as you say, it is not the responsible people we need to worry about.

Also, at what point would the chip be inserted?? I don't advise ID chipping during 1st vacc course as it can lead to behavioural problems with injections so most of my clients wait until neutered so under GA

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:54:48 GMT

[quote user="kerrywilliams2007"]Is that a fox hound in your pic?[/quote]

No she's a Beagle - and she can be aggressive towards other dogs. She's snarled and barked at big black dogs ever since she was attacked by a Rottweiler and a Staff under our garden gate (2 separate incidents about a year apart, both ended up at the clinic). Before this she wanted to play with everything canine. The Staff owner blamed me for letting her stick her head under the gate to watch the world go by. Don't worry about letting your off-lead, untrained, unsocialised, aggressive, entire male dog run across the road and then across my drive to have a go at my dog....... The Rottie wasn't on a lead either and his teenage owner was having a beer in the alley alongside my house with his mates.

Again - two examples of idiots with dogs that make them look "hard" but can't control them, keep them on leads and let them attack anything that moves. Microchip or not both incidents still would have happened. We didn't bother reporting either event cos what's the point? The police know there's a youth problem round here and there's not a lot they can do about it.

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

kerrywilliams2007 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:25:26 GMT

[quote user="Katie Mansfield"]

[quote user="kerrywilliams2007"]With this kind of people owning dogs The list will just grow and grow and grow until the are no breeds left![/quote]

and herein lies the problem that sadly the new legislation isn't tackling. The DDA was a kneejerk reaction to irresponsible ppl and the new microchip law isn't going to deal with that any more the DDA did, which is why I truly believe education needs to start at school with the tiddlers in the infants. But it won't cos like I said before there's not enough room on the curriculum already. You only have to look at today's headlines to see our education system is laughable - GCSE's to be scrapped they said a couple of weeks ago, now this morning they decide not to cos it was another kneejerk reaction to the kids who didn't do so well in the exams this summer. Make me PM and I'll sort this lot out lol

K x

[/quote] It's definitely the people, it just saddens me to the bone that the breed is punished not the person training them to be that way. Yes if a dog has been aggressive and hurt someone/thing the responsible thing is to deal with that dog, but that dog, not all of the same breed. Is that a fox hound in your pic? What happens when these people start fighting them? Or Labradors or collies? How will people feel if these become "dangerous dogs" as a result of these people? How will everyone feel about the DDA then? And the people I witnessed trying to beat the american bull dog, guess what the police did when informed of this & the dog fighting going on up the road (from our veterinary practice!!) Nothing!! Sorry people its a raw nerve with me, an innocent dog being labelled with a name that could potentially end it's life. I'm off now to chill out on my day off!! (I only get upset because of my love for animals, all shapes and sizes! Even evil torties!)

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Charley83 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:05:38 GMT

Katie - The Test or course idea I have said all along, I have a friend who rescues parrots and exotic animals mainly snakes and has a few tortoises. All of these mainly for 1st time owners who have not done they're homework before purchasing the animal. These parrots have behaviour problems, tortoises with terrible shell condition as they're basic needs have not been met.

However again like the microchip debate or would police to make sure the person had done a course as a lot of breeders are just out for the money.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Kay Colquhoun — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:48:59 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

Per Arlo's post re BSAVA consultation into micro-chipping - ..." If anyone in practice wants to feed into this consultation, they should visithttp://www.bsava.com or contact BSAVA's Scientific Policy Officer Sally Everitt via email -s.everitt@bsava.com...."

Cheers Arlo for this...am going to!

Ali h

[/quote]

Thanks for posting about the BSAVA consultation Arlo - we are very keen for VNs to participate. http://bit.ly/XnbHOp

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:34:29 GMT

[quote user="kerrywilliams2007"]With this kind of people owning dogs The list will just grow and grow and grow until the are no breeds left![/quote]

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

kerrywilliams2007 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:15:59 GMT

The only aggressive animal in my house is my torti cat!! Now they should come with a warning! Lol

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

kerrywilliams2007 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:55:40 GMT

I am a registered vet nurse. I work in a vet practice. I have eyes in my head hence I own an american bull dog!!!!! She is the softest, loving, affectionate dog I know. She is not a status symbol. She is a pet. Can I ask how many of you have been bitten/ snapped at at work? How many of them are by these horribly aggressive bull dogs, staffs, dobermans, rotties. And how many are by "nice" dogs that because they are small the owners don't feel the need to train, "oh sorry she I forgot to tell you she bites when you do something she doesn't like" ??? I once witnessed a Gang trying to beat aggression into an american bulldog (yes they had to beat it into him as he didn't have a bad bone in his body) the attempts failed so they got rid and brought another breed of dog. With this kind of people owning dogs The list will just grow and grow and grow until the are no breeds left!

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Sal the 1st — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:49:27 GMT

[quote user="Sophie Bedford RVN CC MBVNA"]

Having said that - is it not like this for horses and passports - they managed to implement this so why not for dogs??

[/quote]

there are still too many back yard breeders, dogs have a lower monetary value than horses, are more prolific and are more likely to change hands for 'a few quid down the pub' and it is easier to 'hide' a dog than it is a horse - but think you have some very good ideas

I remember a puppy coming in for microchip once and I did what I normally do - check the implanter with scanner to make sure chip is there and tallies to number on wrap, scan the pup prior to chip to make sure it hasnt been chipped ....... and lo and behold it was already chipped, made some excuse to 'owner' that reader must be faulty and then made a phone call. The puppy had been reported to chip company as stolen and I was advised to call the police. Did the police want to know? well what do you think?

outcome of this was that puppy had been purchased in a lay by from the 'breeder' (ie the person who had stole it). So yes if all the problems and failings can be addressed microchips are great but I dont really see them making a difference if nothing is enforced apart from the implantation of a chip.

The link I posted earlier up the page of a dog that was dumped - she was chipped, cruelty case but the original owner had sold her on so no idea who dumped her, so no case could be brought.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:48:35 GMT

[quote user="Sophie Bedford RVN CC MBVNA"]Having said that - is it not like this for horses and passports - they managed to implement this so why not for dogs??[/quote]

Sadly they haven't. The lady I used to share with's horse doesn't have a passport cos she couldn't afford to pay it when it came out and then she never got round to it and the deadline date passed. She doesn't have 3rd party insurance either and still hacks out on the roads. I was horrified when she told me. She justified the lack of passport by saying she knows a dealer that will take the mare without the paperwork if she ends up selling. So that's all right then...........

I know the authorities can just turn up at the yard and demand to see the passports of all the animals stabled there but they never have, and I doubt they ever will unless someone reports it.

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

kerrywilliams2007 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:45:48 GMT

Nice piece of copy and paste there. But that's not what your original post implied. All dogs have the potential to be aggressive, therefore all should be governed in some way. Not just breed specifics.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Roseann21 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:45:15 GMT

[quote user="kerrywilliams2007"]american bull dogs are NOT pitbulls!!! It's comments like that that really upset me!! Comments like that could get an innocent affectionate loving dog that's never shown an ounce of aggression up for investigation. I thought views on this breed specific legislation & breed typed would be a little more well educated on this site. If compulsory microchipping is another step in the direction of scrapping "one of the worst pieces of legislation that's found it's way onto the statute book"( as quoted in vet nurse times article on the DDA) then I'm all for chipping, licences, passports you name it's worth it not to see an innocent animal, bred into the world through no fault of its own, destroyed. Sorry to rant but you touched a nerve. So not all american bulldogs are pitbulls, try researching into that breed before you wrongly accuse another innocent dog.[/quote]

Sorry, but I agree with Katie. Anyone who works in vet practice, or indeed anyone who has eyes in their head, knows that these dogs have a reputation for a reason. And no, it's not the dog's "fault", but you only have to look at the number of people who have them as status symbols/to make them look hard to realise why they have that reputation. It's not JUST the bulldog types either, you can include mastiffs, dogues de bordeaux, akitas, etc,etc. Yes there are good owners, we have plenty registered at our practice, but there are many, many others who perpetuate these dogs' reputations - and it is these owners I am sure who will not bother to get their dogs chipped.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:42:03 GMT

[quote user="kerrywilliams2007"]american bull dogs are NOT pitbulls!!! It's comments like that that really upset me!! [/quote]

I know!!!!!!! What I'm was trying to point out is that at my place we see an awful lot of quite obv Pits that are being passed off as Bulldogs so the owner doesn't get reported as owning a banned breed - we even had a Pit passed off as an "Irish Staff" a few months ago - our clients invent new breeds on a regular basis cos they know without papers there's nothing that can be done.

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Sophie Bedford RVN CertVNECC — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:26:04 GMT

One of the ways that I can see it working is obviously going to take a lot of effort and very unlikely to happen but to have a central company that deals with all microchip details and you have a certificate with the details for that dog similar to the V5 document for cars - it is the responsibility of the SELLER to send off the details to say it's been sold and who to otherwise they accept they are completely accountable for anything that happens in the future. I can see that this is likely to be similar to licences and as this isn't in the pipeline it's unlikely to work.

It's a shame we don't have electronic systems in place like they do for car drivers that states on the microchip details when it was last vaccinated / who insurers are etc..... It's never gonna happen because there are so many different IT systems I'm sure it's impossible to implement but it would be nice!

Having said that - is it not like this for horses and passports - they managed to implement this so why not for dogs??

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:25:44 GMT

http://www.differentbreedsofdogs.org//AMERICAN_BULLDOG.html

There are some criadores that think that this race is recent and that comes from crossings between Bulldog, Bullmastiff and Pit Bull Terrier, but its extraordinary similarity with the old Bulldog, the father of all the Bulldog, makes think that this is the contemporary continuation of that one old race that cleared the extinction. The American Bulldog was originated like a working dog (mainly for cattle) and dog of protection, to the south-east of North America. And it was taken very in serious his work, became athletic and strong, where the men of those earth needed to hunt to the wild pigs.....

....The Bull American Dog brave and is determined, but it is not a hostile dog. It always alerts and very trusting, this race loves the children. It is recognized by his acts of heroism towards his owner. These dogs have fought with wild dogs, bulls and even the fire. Due to its instincts to protect, this race must well be trained to early age. Some can be aggressive with other distrustful dogs and with strange people. They need to be near people, to be completely happy.

Just for info...

Peace.

Ali h

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

kerrywilliams2007 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:18:35 GMT

[quote user="Katie Mansfield"]

Who exactly is gonna police this scheme? I can't see the councils employing more dog wardens to go approaching granny in the park and check her Yorkie's chipped, can you? So who's gonna do it - oh yeah, us when the responsible pet owner presents their pet for vaccination probably - something most irresponsible owners don't do routinely. So the unchipped dog is gonna cause vet clinics more paperwork and potential loss of clients when word gets around that we report unchipped dogs.

I thought the original idea to was to put a stop to anti-social behaviour with dogs, ie the hoodies on the street corners with the out of control Staffies, the druggies who train their Pit Bulls (soz American / Irish Bulldogs grrrrr) to be aggressive etc, etc. Microchipping isn't gonna make a jot of difference to these ppl or their dogs. However - it does mean that if one of these dogs bites someone the person to whom the chip is registered will get fined, hence another money making scheme for the government.

What they should have done is to introduce some sort of scheme where ppl have to take a test to own a dog. Altho I doubt even that would work - just look at the driving test as an example; ppl still pass their tests then go out uninsured, drink driving, speeding etc etc etc, and it would prob drive the sale of trophy-dogs underground.

I think early education on responsible pet ownership should start at infants school level, in the same way they're teaching 5 yr olds about the dangers of gang culture, but with an already overloaded curriculum I can't see that happening any time soon.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Guess it's just politics to be seen to be doing something even though it appears not to be really fit for purpose?.....[/quote]

Welcome to the re-run of 1992........

Soz to be a bit negative,

K x

[/quote] american bull dogs are NOT pitbulls!!! It's comments like that that really upset me!! Comments like that could get an innocent affectionate loving dog that's never shown an ounce of aggression up for investigation. I thought views on this breed specific legislation & breed typed would be a little more well educated on this site. If compulsory microchipping is another step in the direction of scrapping "one of the worst pieces of legislation that's found it's way onto the statute book"( as quoted in vet nurse times article on the DDA) then I'm all for chipping, licences, passports you name it's worth it not to see an innocent animal, bred into the world through no fault of its own, destroyed. Sorry to rant but you touched a nerve. So not all american bulldogs are pitbulls, try researching into that breed before you wrongly accuse another innocent dog.

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

nin86 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 09:59:53 GMT

Very pleased about the compulsory m'chipping but I agree with all the above re how will this be regulated and ensured o's details are correct.

But i think one thing that needs to be looked at is the charge the chip companies make us pay for updating and changing details! When i moved house last yr they wanted me to pay £15 per cat to change the details- i have 3 cats and did not have a spare £45 lying about for this having just moved house! I think this fee is what puts a lot of people off and although their intention is to change it when they have the money they never get round to it! This is a particular problem for people with multiple pets!

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 09:34:08 GMT

Cheers Arlo for this...am going to!

Ali h

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 09:33:09 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Guess it's just politics to be seen to be doing something even though it appears not to be really fit for purpose?.....[/quote]

Welcome to the re-run of 1992........

Soz to be a bit negative,

K x

Re: Compulsory Microchipping

Roseann21 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 09:29:30 GMT

http://www.vetnurse.co.uk/blogs/veterinary_news/archive/2013/02/07/139540.aspx