Gah!

Re: Gah!

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:15:40 GMT

Well said Sal.

Re: Gah!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:11:47 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

I do believe the original post began with *rant*, so thats what the OP was doing, letting off a bit of steam. The phrase "go play in traffic" is, in itself tongue in cheek, so it should be obvious that it is not a serious comment. Unless you think it was a genuine instruction?! There are a host of reasons why this situation has occurred, which may be out of their control. Do we know whether the nurses have been asking for small scales or years, or maybe its being used (I worked in a 3 storey practice, where the scales were often used downstairs and we'd be hunting round for them during consults) or the vet had insisted the cat just get popped on the big scales? We don't know.

I have a feeling the OP is probably feeling pretty low right now for unnecessary reasons and is probably questioning their own judgment after being shouted down so viciously. I, for one totally support the OP and think some of those previous posters should get up off their high horses and remember we're VN's and this is the real world, not some "gold standard" rose tinted specs world! I shall step down from my soap box now.

[/quote]

Re: Gah!

Lee484 — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:44:15 GMT

Of course, I don't think it was a genuine instruction, I've heard it used countless times, but for me personally, that's the problem. I have and always will, think statements like these are unnecessary, too many times I've seen rants and statements that get out of hand and someone ultimately gets hurt. As I say,it's a personal view, and I would hate to think that anyone feels low as a result of posts on this site, we're all in this together, and lets face it, who else in our lives can sympathize with the cat that really doesnt want that I/M injection, the dog that always manages to chew through its line, or that anal gland smell that just won't go away, even when wearing gloves!!! That's very true, often as VN's we are over ruled in how we would like to do things and what equipment we would Iike to have, and its in these cases we have to look at how we can make the most of what we have and how we can get the job done in the safest, most efficient way possible. Hopefully some comments gave the poster alternative methods,these themselves are not gold standard, but if applied, at least we can say we did our best, and we did it safely, that's all we can ask for:)

Re: Gah!

Tracy Windler RVN — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:11:30 GMT

Re: Gah!

Lee484 — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:50:28 GMT

It's not that awkward if you call the client in and pop the carrier on the scales straight away then proceed to get the cat out and do the clinic, it shouldn't add anytime to your consult. I dont think people are being deliberately mean, for me, I was a bit shocked by the attitude towards the client for complaining. Saying this client shouldn't own a pet or "go play in traffic" because they objected to the scruff, to me, is a little OTT, and hopefully the suggestions given will help avoid angry clients and make things safer for the animals:)

Re: Gah!

Elerrina — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 19:09:10 GMT

I think you're all completely over reacting and being generally mean! Its completely obvious she wasn't dangling the cat about by its scruff she was just holding its scruff whilst weighing to ensure it couldn't escape in any way. The way many of you are acting was as if she was strangling it in front of its owner or something.

Our practice is exactly the same, our scales are in the corridor behind the consult rooms and we weigh cats on them. some weigh the box and some just plonk the cat on the scales. We don't scruff often but we use it when we have to. And also when you have 10 min consult times or something its going to be awkward to go "ok lets just weigh the box and then the cat in the box and then take the cat back out of the box to give it medication" or whatever.

Re: Gah!

nin86 — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:27:32 GMT

[quote user="molladog"]

[quote user="Roseann21"]

[quote user="StMongo"]

Our scale is on the floor, so we always scruff when weighing a cat, which is what sparked the owner's protest this morning. I wouldn't trust any cat in a million years to just sit there ("you don't have to hold him like that, he'll just sit there) and not take off. Best case scenario is digging a terrified cat out from under the xray machine. Worst case is someone opening the door at just the right time, and we are on a very busy road. Given those possibilities, I'll scruff all day long.

[/quote]

I'm almost speechless. Sorry, but what on earth are you doing weighing cats on scales in a room (reception??) with a door to a busy road, not in a basket? And where they can run under an xray machine? And I agree with everyone else - I only scruff if I absolutely have to, in my experience scruffing can make cats worse, by far the best way is minimal restraint.

[/quote]

Must say I agree with above post, why are you trying to weigh a cat loose on the floor in a busy environment?? Incredible !

[/quote]

I also have to agree that this method of weighing is insane!! With so many possibilities for things to go wrong im very surprised that your practice allows this. I think you deffinately need to review your weighing methods. Always weigh the cat in the box then weigh the box and do the math! If you havnt had problems before now then you are very lucky!

Re: Gah!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 22:00:58 GMT

I agree with Tracy on this one - its easy to criticise when you are not fully aware of circumstances, however I will also agree with a later poster that the original poster didnt come across too well in their opening statement - and in saying that neither did many of the resulting posters. There is an awful lot of 'attitude' around at the moment and not only on this thread either. Maybe its something in the water

Re: Gah!

oconnoanan — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:37:25 GMT

By the way, a portable digital scales, with a trough shaped weighing platform, is very affordable, you can pop it on a counter, and most cats if they are handleable will tolerate sitting/standing for a second and being weighed on it, you can have an arm out ready to grab them if they look like they might bolt. Other option is pop them in a box or portable cage and weigh both, then subtract weight of the box. All minimal stress for animal and owner (and staff!)!! Everyone's a winner!!

Re: Gah!

oconnoanan — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:29:51 GMT

Yep agree, have to say I would hate to see my cat being scruffed as a first option - could understand if it was absolultely necessary, but unless she was a flight risk or going bonkers, don't see the need for it. And I can only imagine a client's horror at having to see their precious pet roughly manhandled - whatever about the cats perception of it, how can you not understand an owner being concerned?? And I'd also question the safety of my animal, if there were concerns that they may be escaping from a consult room onto a busy road!! Surely there are safety measures to prevent this happening? Like doors?

Re: Gah!

Roseann21 — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:45:54 GMT

[quote user="StMongo"]<rant> I am NOT hurting your cat when I hold him by the scruff. That's what that skin is for! If you are too stupid to understand that, then you are certainly too stupid to even have a pet in the first place. Now please go play in traffic. </rant>[/quote]

Hmmm.... I might have been a bit less harsh if the OP hadn't been quite so harsh herself about the clients whose pets she is "looking after". I wonder what they would think if she expressed out loud what she was thinking? It wasn't just the comments about trying to weigh a cat in less than ideal circumstances, it was a rather extreme reaction to someone objecting to what was being done to her cat. I'm all for constructive criticism and a bit of understanding, but the OP's post doesn't really engender that.

Re: Gah!

Tracy Windler RVN — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:45:38 GMT

I think this is all a bit harsh. We don't know the OP's situation, it might have been a last resort situation and we all know there are work places which have less than ideal situations - thats why we're so good at adapting and making the best of difficult situations! I know of at least one place which should be "gold standard care", but still have staffing situations which are far from acceptable for patients- and they have the resources to do something about it! I usually scruff, if the cat needs restraint and rarely have found a problem with it, if its done gently, but firmly. But have found a few situations where gentle handling is better, but it has its risks too.

Please lets keep this forum supportive and (if we really do disagree) constructive without being too critical.

xxx

Re: Gah!

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:25:35 GMT

[quote user="molladog"]

[quote user="Roseann21"]

[quote user="StMongo"]

[/quote]

Must say I agree with above post, why are you trying to weigh a cat loose on the floor in a busy environment?? Incredible !

[/quote]

I do agree with the above posters - Don't you have 'cat' scales? If not, maybe invest in some - They aren't that expensive. Last thing you want is a bouncy labrador dragging its owner into the waiting room while you are weighing this cat - despite being scruffed, it will probably go mental poor thing.

Re: Gah!

molladog — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 08:52:10 GMT

[quote user="Roseann21"]

[quote user="StMongo"]

[/quote]

Must say I agree with above post, why are you trying to weigh a cat loose on the floor in a busy environment?? Incredible !

Re: Gah!

Julie-Anne Wilson — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 22:11:22 GMT

[quote user="StMongo"]

<rant> I am NOT hurting your cat when I hold him by the scruff. That's what that skin is for! If you are too stupid to understand that, then you are certainly too stupid to even have a pet in the first place. Now please go play in traffic. </rant>

[/quote]

Do you not think that a lot of owners are worried about their cat when it's in the practice?

If you're go to restraint method is scruffing, I'd be pi**ed as an owner as well. If a cat is behaving well there is absolutely no need to scruff it. I will scruff a cat but if only if regular handling and a towel is not possible. Some cats HATE being scruffed and can behave worse when it's done.

I think your practice needs to look at a better way of weighing cats if they all have to be scruffed to do so - doesn't seem like a good way to put cats at ease in an already uncomfortable environment.

Re: Gah!

Sal the 1st — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:43:59 GMT

I dont like scruffing and will do anything not to scruff a cat. At work we use towels when needed but we mostly go for minimal restraint. One of my own cats is scruff shy and I can guarantee anybody that even tries to scruff him that is when they are going to get hurt - a lot. He fights real dirty and will usually flip over onto his back and then really have a go with both teeth and claws ( makes vaccinating him really interesting!) dont know what has happened in his past to cause this.

Having read the article I will say however that pegging does have its place so I do disagree that it shouldnt be used. If you are presented with a really sick kitty and you need rads and 'clipnosis' will get you a diagnostic picture quickly without having to hit the kitty with drugs that may further compromise its condition then I think pegging is an acceptable option

Re: Gah!

Roseann21 — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:40:56 GMT

[quote user="StMongo"]

[/quote]

Re: Gah!

Steph Worsley — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:36:13 GMT

we have a no scruff policy at work I have only scruffed 2 cats in the last 5 years and that was to stop them hurting themselves!!

I have found no problems with not scruffing, we use towels if needed and have other means of restraint.

If your scales are on the floor why dont you weight the carrier with and without the cat...this is what I always used to do prior to getting small cat sized scales!

I have just read through some of the other comments and realised I have said pretty much the same as Lee484!!

Re: Gah!

nin86 — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:02:35 GMT

I only scruff as a last resort. Will always try minimal restraint first but if i dont have any co-operation i will scruff in order to avoid injury. If i am with a client i will always tell them i will just gently scruff their cat and that it doesnt hurt. Usually by the time i need to scruff the owner has been witness to why so they dont complain. My two of my three cats HATE being scruffed, they will not tolerate it, whereas the other one needs scruffing to do anything medical with and it immobilises her instantly. Swings and roundabouts i guess!

Re: Gah!

Lee484 — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:00:58 GMT

Really nice article, thanks!

I personally do not like to scruff at all, and will only use it if myself or others are at risk of being bitten or scratched, and even then, I try to keep it minimal, but usually, if you have assessed your patient well, better forms of restraint can be used - a towel wrap can make them feel secure, and its amazing how minimal restraint can change some cats from legs akimbo to sitting still nicely for that jugular sample. I should say I used to scruff a lot, I thought it was easier and better, but a stint at the RVC a couple years ago (where minimal restraint is a must!) really made me see how much it works and what a difference it can make.

I can see how clients get upset when their pet is scruffed, especially if it hasn't been explained to them before hand, I think most people assume it hurts and also associate it with wild aggressive cats and automatically think you think their pet is aggressive, which, even when they are, a lot of client refuse to believe and will get upset over.

If I ever work anywhere with floor scales and there's a worry of escape then I weigh the cat in the carrier and then weigh the carrier on its own, or place a towel over the cat and lift slowly to get an accurate reading (extra people at the scales incase the cat makes a dash for it also helps)

Even better would be small electronic scales, they're not too expensive, can sit on the table and give much more accurate readings, plus cats seem to automatically go and sit on them. Baby ones work well -although they can come with an annoying lullaby button that someone always thinks is funny to press, rock a by baby can get irritating very quickly:)

Re: Gah!

oconnoanan — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:37:26 GMT

Good article, thanks. Quote from it: "*Footnote: On review of these guidelines, the ISFM/FAB feline expert panel
strongly support the view that scruffing should never be used as a routine method
of restraint, and should only be used where there is no alternative."

Re: Gah!

A-J — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:07:05 GMT

read the purple box on page 371 - interesting

http://www.isfm.net/wellcat/UK/FFHG.pdf

Re: Gah!

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:37:43 GMT

I scruff if I have to. I rather scruff than get scratched or bitten! It's a form of animal restraint, but as one of the other posters has stated, some cats will resist being restrained by the scruff and can make them worse so you do have to recognise those signs, which is all part of being a nurse :-)

In front of the owners, I then explain to them that the scruff is excess skin, which mummy cats use to pick up their kittens and carry them around, so it does not cause them pain, just makes them submissive. Most owners are fine. But obviously, any 'difficult' cats are always handled away from the owners so not to cause them stress as some owners have never seen their cat being hostile towards others before.

I'm aware that my cat since she was spayed is hostile when she comes to my practice for a check up etc, she absolutely hates it initially. She hisses, swipes and flicks her tail angrily, tenses up and flinches at being touched so I do have to scruff her. However at home, she is the sweetest cat in the world!

Re: Gah!

StMongo — Mon, 03 Dec 2012 23:31:20 GMT

Re: Gah!

Alia — Mon, 03 Dec 2012 23:10:43 GMT

I never understand practices that have a total ban on scruffing cats. Although I much prefer a minimal handling approach sometimes scruffing is needed and is far safer to follow if that is what the person restraining feels confident with (in a required situation).