Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Gee Jay Pee — Mon, 08 Apr 2013 14:29:11 GMT

From your original post it seems that you favour the degree route. In my experience employers have no preference which educational route you have taken, as long as you are qualified... what most do seem to want is the experience and practical skills- not necessarily just with the animals, there is a lot that can be said for a nurse that can hold their own in a packed reception, manage aspects of the business or deal with customer complaints.

It tends to be the colleagues you will have to work with that may make judgments about you based on your qualification. A practice that I have recently worked at took on an degree route nurse, as they expected clinical skills to be high, for her to support student nurses academically and that she could offer the skills included in her studies. The reality was very different... she was being shown aspects of her role by work experience children and eventually lost all confidence in her abilities.

There are many advantages to working in practice, as long as you can find a supportive team but bear in mind that it will take time and you are completely in the employers hands- Dont rush it, take the time to learn what you can in practice because it will serve as a good foundation to your studies which is why I chose the diploma route.

Compare it to teaching, teachers gain their qualification but have to do a year as an NQT (newly qualified teacher) before they are allowed greater freedom. Hopefully this will help you understand the practical expectations placed upon you.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:58:56 GMT

Yes that is the one thing i.ve eventually came up against in a few practices but not all the feeling towards degree nurses and lack of skills etc and i do note the pros and cons of both and that both students spend approx the same amount of time in practice. I think some feel the degree nurse think they should get a job and become a head nurse straight away as they are "better" than diploma students. Yes they may have more academic knowledge which is useful but only if the nurse knows how to apply it to practice.

Having been a student nurse, staff nurse, then district nurse I know I shall have to work up and that doesn't bother me in fact I was asked how i,d cope being the bottom of the pack as a student vet nurse when i have been in charge of my own practice etc. I feel the degree may open up more opportunities in the future but as you say as degree costs rise this is a thing to consider after all you will still become a qulaified nurse and not be paid any extra because of the degree. Just have to wait and see if i get accepted first - hope I do more interviews coming up.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

katsutton — Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:20:57 GMT

I recently completed my BSc degree at Hartpury last year, I made this decision after coming straight out of my A levels and found that it was very hard to try and find a placement before starting the diploma course. You obviously have the experience of the work involved with a degree course. My uni offers both a Foundation degree and a BSc (basically the last year is all about dissertation!) and if I did it all again I would go for the foundation degree (3 years) you still get the RCVS qualification, degree, but just none of the hassle and stress of the dissertation!

I found the degree very enjoyable and uni life awesome! Its definatly a unique experience!!!, I seem to find that employers are very set into thinking that degree students don't have much experience, they seem to forget that we have to complete the same time for the NPL (well it was the portfolio for me!), I was in placement for just less than 2 years! Which is really basically the same time for diploma students. Carrying out all the same tasks, caring for patients, etc, etc.

On my experience the degree does have more in-depth knowledge. In my second placement practice I did find that for diploma students they had a "trial period" before being allowed to start studying (about 6months), while I did walk straight into the position. My second practice did also pay me for my placement (it was minimum wage but it was better than nothing!!)

I think the decision it very individual! If you are looking for a quicker, more "hands on" straight away approach, the diploma is great! While if your looking for more in-depth studying I think the degree is more tailored to you.

One thing to think of with the rising tuition fees and the other option of training to be a vet nurse, degree qualified veterinary nurses may become less frequent and "rarer"

Hope this helps :)

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:20:51 GMT

Yes it does thanks - I suppose its good i,m getting interviews just waiting to hear for CAW now. The degree would open up more opportunities but as you say can alwats top up, just hoping I get in also applied for Veterinary nursing assistant course just in case - get good experience before reapplying of need be.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Samantha Bell BSc(Hons) DipHE CVN DipAVN RVN VNA M — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:21:39 GMT

Hi there,

I completed my degree at Hartpury back in 2007. The degree has somewhat changed, but we have students from the degree route all the time.

I went on to do the Advance diploma, which I completed this year, have done the RVCS exams, so feel I have gone through all the different avenues one way or another

Coming straight from ALevels I relished the chance to go to uni, and be a student (like most of my other friends). I enjoyed the degree, and whether or not I went into vet nursing, the degree would aid me in any animal related path I wanted to go in (despite me knowing that I wanted to be a vet nurse). The degree involved placements one of which was over a year in length. For vets and nurses to say that degree students have little practical knowledge in very unfair, and they have no idea. I then finished and went onto to work in a referral practice, and with most jobs, there is always new things to learn, and we never stop learning. I do feel STILL there is anamosity to degree nurses, and yes we can write essays, yes we can critically analyse papers, but his improves standards of nursing care, if we can critically look at papers, or investigate ourselves, which is what the profession is trying to achieve... improving clinical nursing

This view has been further embelished by completeing my advanced diploma this year from myerscough. It was a hard 2 1/2 years, but i feel now that I have much further knowledge, and the vets actually listen to my clinical views and I feel i can understand and analysie new techniques/ideas fully, to improve the care of the patients entrusted to me

We have students completing the NPL at the moment, under both the degree and from the diploma. They complete the same CSL/NPL and both find it easy to understand, as do the assessors. The degree of knowledge between them is on par...

You say you already have a masters, well this will aid your degree much so, as my degree helped my advanced diploma and made everything make much more sense. It really depends on your personal circumstances. The money you have been putting aside will aid you to complete the advanced diploma nursing after the diploma route, which you can then top up to the degree after if you wish...(see myerscough website for info) so its really how supportive your practice is, and whether it is something they want to do in the future...

Hope this helps, feel free to email me

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:35:16 GMT

Would have loved to go to Harper Adams - looks a really good course with lots of optional modules that interest me, equine, farm animal nursing and physical therapy's. Iwant to eventually become a veterinary physio - from my human rehab nursing background - could think of nothing more rewarding the Msc looks good that's if i even get on the VN course. See how my Napier interview goes. Can't afford to move again!

Don't think i,ll have a hope in hell at Telford as they mainly fill places with folk who done well the the pre VN/ANA course. Waiting to hear from CAW. Getting impatient everyone in England seems to know if their in are not. Doesn't give you much time to organise a placement if get accepted.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:33:06 GMT

I would prefer diplma as I prefer more practical, just have to wait and see!

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:32:16 GMT

Have interview for Napier awiting replies from telford and CAW - Barony too far away

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Emily Nightingale — Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:41:02 GMT

Hi, I dont know if you are still thinking about what to do but I chose the degree course at Harper Adams and have never looked back! I know quite a few people who have struggled finding a practice on the diploma course and one frined works full time for free. At least on the honours course I know we all got a placement and although it isnt as practiclaly based, by time you work in bractice you feel like you know a lot more. However it would be a lot more expensive to do the BSc course as it does last 4 years which would be quite pricey. Hope this helps anyway

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:17:47 GMT

I also found the dechra academy useful from small animal and equine pathophysiology and fluid therapy also has modules on feline hyperthyroidism, cushings, and endocrine stuff. I do love the anatomy and physiology side.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Kirsten Clements — Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:57:43 GMT

I am currently doing the diploma it is a great way not to get in debt and do the course quicker as such but do find it alot of work at times. I work full time and go to college one day a week on top I have to do revision for mock tests every week and my first exam is only three months away. I will also be starting on call in january. So it depend on you as a person if you could balance and cope with the work load?

Kirsten

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Stuart Ford-Fennah — Sun, 02 Dec 2012 13:01:54 GMT

just a quick note regarding the critical thinking upseting vets sometimes.. To my knoweldge this has only happend with certain individual -i will say no more - it was just a casual note really not a hard and fast rule

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Stuart Ford-Fennah — Sun, 02 Dec 2012 12:49:13 GMT

I think the spoon fed thing has been taken the wrong way here - hands up every one whos done a masters - not many i'm sure i certanly havent, (not yet anyway) i was comparing a masters to diploma not a degree to diploma! Anyone who knows some body who has done a masters should speak to them about how much they have to 'read' as its a massive step from any of the qualifications prior. As to critical thinking i am a big berliver that veterinary nurses are getting much better at this - you can see from the articles which are being written in our journals etc.

I think that critical thinking is something which is very misunderstood and just so those who arent clear on its meaning I've attached this link to help clarify a deficnition for you http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/defining-critical-thinking/76, the profession is moving forwards and this is one thing which we can help to develop to increase our research database.

Back to the origional subject, i stick by what i say and it depends on how YOU learn, i did better in university doesn't mean everyone does. If you have a job in practice then the diploma is a great route, one of my nurses has just passed her DipAVN and shes gained a lot from it and it really suited her. You can do top up degrees too now i think i dont know anyone whos done one so not sure if theyre compulsary full time of if they're avalible part time too.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Sal the 1st — Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:55:25 GMT

I qualified through the green book and I wasnt spoon fed I can promise you and neither were any of the nurses I helped to teach prior to 'carve up' that called itself the NVQ which IMO was the beginning of the end for veterinary nursing.

I was taught that it was ok to input ideas or ask questions so long as it was done respectfully and was appreciative that others had their own ideas and opinions - and thats what happens when people work together, this didnt come from my veterinary nurse training this came from my parents, this was something I was taught at home (probably pre primary school) long before I was old enough to understand its importance. Maybe this should be taught as part of the vet nurse training just as a little reminder for some people

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

SuzyM — Sun, 02 Dec 2012 10:04:34 GMT

There are going to be differences in the way diploma/degree courses are delivered, but to suggest that diploma students are 'spoon fed' may raise a few hackles!! Also, the tutors for the diploma course I studied on were big on critical thinking - they didn't give us all the answers, and really challenged us to use this approach in everything we did and this has had a huge effect on the way I practice.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Paulette — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 15:55:21 GMT

[quote user="oconnoanan"]

Can you point me in the direction of free online CPD courses? Thanks x

[/quote]

www.thewebinarvet.com

idexx learning centre

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 10:01:06 GMT

[quote user="oconnoanan"]

what CPD courses are you doing? are they online? and/or free?

[/quote]

Done some on Merial site - Immunization - which was good to gain insight on the disease vaccines protect against - american based but I just done extra research on vaccines in the UK , They also do canine pain management, fleas, ticks,, heartworms, immunology, zoonotic disease, dentistry etc. Done the Royal Canin webinar on tuesday there, that was useful for me as got to recently take part in nursing a pup needing syringe feed - i now know about resting energy requirement etc and the different foods. Looked at the Bayer Jungle on Parasites also.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Michelle Rewcastle — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 06:30:35 GMT

Ive dabbled in both, and believe that at the end of the day, it really depends on how you learn. I learn best by watching and doing, Degree route was a real struggle for me and i quid half way through the 4 years. Now on diploma route in practice 6 weeks, off to for college 2 weeks, and feel like there is finally a light at the end of a very long black tunnel!!

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

ginny — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 02:35:26 GMT

The degree didn't exist when I trained but to my knowledge diploma nurses are not spoon fed. :) Us green book nurses certainly were not. They get notes, yes, but they have a hell of a lot of work to do themselves. How else would the syllabus detail get covered? (I learned long ago to be careful not to upset the vets with critical thinking! :)) They are our bread and butter at the end of the day!!) DipAVN also encourages this type of learning so maybe that's an idea for the future if you wanted to go on and get a higher qualification. You never stop learning as a vet nurse. The good thing is there are many vets out there who encourage that, especially if you use your knowledge to benefit the practice. At a practice I worked at we had nurses who were encouraged to explore their interests ( behaviour, practice nursing, medicine, training, large animal etc) and you learned as much as you could to expand your particular area. One slight disadvantage I thought about for degree trained nurses was that they have to find a job at the end of the course. Some are taken on by their placements which is good. The diploma ones have their job still and presumably a pay rise on qualifying ( unless they have signed a contract stating otherwise! ). As there are plenty of jobs around at the minute that isn't really a problem though. Interesting topic this!

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Stuart Ford-Fennah — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:17:08 GMT

I think both routes produce good nurses, The degree (certanly the one i did - theyre not all the same) help develop critical thinking a lot more and i think this has helped me develop my career much better than if i had not had this training. The diploma does seem to focus on the practical aspecats aposed to the academic aspects and i think the depth of knowledge is different in the respect that degree nurses are expected to read for their degree not be given it. I also think that 4 years at university espcailly in a good institution give a very well rounded approach to nursing as your likly to be placed in a range of practices - this tends to not be the case in the dipoma (to my knowledge anyway).

I think also it depends how YOU learn if you want to be told what you need to know and given all your notes by someone else then i guess the diploma is a good route - As youve done a masters you my find this a bit spoon fed and might want to have more say in what self directed study you do.

Ive worked with both and on clinics dont find much difference apart form Degree nurses have the edge on critical thinking whihc upsets vets sometimes...

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:24:20 GMT

I really can't decide pros and cons to both. - However a least the diploma I could be earning after 2 years instead of 4 and could top up however I love studying and love to research in depth topics of interest - degree appeals. Just have to keep fingers cross and see if I get interview/s. Just got to wait till february according to the 2 letters I have!

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Charley83 — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:20:35 GMT

I really interested in being a clincal hand on nurse if accepted i would love to complete the advanced diploma as i,m very practical, I also enjoy IT. I think I would enjoy the clinical coach after a few years qualified. Ideally I would like to experience both practice and hospital/ referal centre nursing. I have enjoyed the weeks I have spent a each practice allowing me to compare practice, gain knowledge in different settings. I have applied for Napier Bsc Hons, Caw diploma and Barony, will also be applying to telford when application forms out. Anyone in Central Scotland looking for a keen enthusiastic wannabe student nurse or a care assistant?

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Paulette — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:44:04 GMT

[quote user="Hayley Rafter"]

FdSc is 3 years after that you're qualified and can do the additional assignments to get into BSc if you're not already enrolled on BSc.

[/quote]

I think this would depend which uni you study the top-up at as I did FdSc at Harper Adams and then stayed on another year (full time so lectures, assignments and research project) to top up to BSc (which you can do with or without Honours). You can also do the top-up there part time if you wish.

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:28:31 GMT

That's right, I should have clarified - CAW runs the top-up BSc in association with Napier in Scotland, and Middlesex in London. :)

Re: Degree or Diploma in Veterinary nursing

ginny — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:37:42 GMT

I think the CAW (London and Edinburgh) and Napier all have VN top up degrees. The one at Myescough needs you to have done their DipAVN first.

I don't know but I don't think the ND in animal management is a level 3 (or level 4) course whereas the vet nursing qualification is so thats possibly why you can't top up? Think its a very different type of course too? Vaguely recall a couple of students who did this and went on to vet nursing saying the vet nursing course was much harder. Could be wrong as get very confused with the many "animal" related courses around these days!

Completely agree that is down to the individual rather than their qualification. Going by the practices I have worked in, I also think it depends on the expectations of the employing practice and their workload as well. I would interview both, neither would have an advantage or disadvantage and their pay would be the same too. Pay only goes up with experience and / or responsibility in places I have worked.