What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 21:17:51 GMT

well said Ginny

I have already had this conversation elsewhere but will mention it here too. The NHS are carrying out rounds of cut backs with staffing levels at the moment - so IMO it would be fair to say they have found their rate of pay/ number of staff unsustainable too in the current economic climate, so I feel people should be a tad careful what they wish for

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

ginny — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 07:55:58 GMT

The comparison between vet nurses and human nurses is driving me potty too. The is no possible way of comparison between the NHS within which human nurses train and the privately owned vet practices. The NHS is run on public funds. Vet practices are private businesses! You can't even compare private practices in the same town never mind the same country! It costs private practices to train nurses in money and time. There is a lot of paper work, red tape and what sometimes feels like sticky breaking. Potential students should be looking for jobs as student vet nurses not "placements". I get increasingly ratty with people who want just want to train and who aren't interested in loyalty to the employer but just see them as a "placement". Potential students should have a 6mth trial period first to see if they are a suitable employee before training but many expect to start college as soon as possible without finding out if they suit the job or the practice. Training is a bonus and not a right for many in practice. Sorry it just a personal view but like Sal I feel vet nursing is running before it can walk. We need to get back to what the vets want from a nurse, slow down and work as a practice team. Although I subscribe wholeheartedly to QVN's doing the job of vet nursing rather than unqualified people its a fact that many do the job and do it well.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:42:54 GMT

Well, while I can't comment on starting salary (except that vet surgeon starting pay is around 21k these days), you're right in that there are only a little over 1600 training practices in the UK. They're thin on the ground in some areas of the UK.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Charley83 — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:52:38 GMT

I think the minimum rate of pay for an RVN shouldbe £20,000+ think it should be on par with human nurses. I just wish there were more placements and support sor student VNs who haven't secured a job in a practice. Human nursing students receive a bursary at least which they don't have to pay back. It would be good if there were some government support for SVN considering the apparent shortage but somehow thats highly unlikely t happen but the apprenticeship scheme is for young people unlike me! The figure I quoted was when I worked as a nurse in a private GP surgery soo they could pay what they wanted just like vet practices.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Selena Carnell — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:28:11 GMT

I don't think vet nursing is too badly paid, I recently was job hunting for just over 6 months and I looked at just about any job, the average pay I was looking at worked out at about 6.50 per hour. Luckily I managed to get back in to a surgery and am on 9.50 an hour. I'm never gonna earn mega bucks but I'm in a job I love, rathe that than stuck in some things find mundane!

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:26:55 GMT

yes it is annoying I will agree with you - so why are so many people vet nurses as well so keen to use it as a comparison?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Roseann21 — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:12:02 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

The starting rate for a human nurse is £10.80.(an RN is in band 5) http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/444941/Pay_Scales_2012_Final270312.pdf They do a lot more training and, on average, work much more antisocial hours.

[/quote]

This habit of comparing us with human nurses drives ME mad. It is ridiculous, there is no comparison. They get annual inflation rises, they get a good pension, and you are quoting a starting salary. And you can't generalise and say they do more antisocial hours. There is no point in making comparisons with ANY other job, but comparing us with human nurses is particularly galling.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 11:31:28 GMT

Ever since animals have been kept, the value of veterinary nursing has been known. In 1881 John Woodroffe Hill wrote "the health of the patient is in the majority of cases as much in the hands of the nurse as of the professional attendant".

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 11:08:52 GMT

I locum, so get all sorts of views of VN life and treatment

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 21:45:06 GMT

I agree, you should pay for advice. Therefore in my practice nurse consultations aren't free - maybe that is something you could try to change in your practice?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:29:02 GMT

That should say why shouldn't our knowledge be paid for, in the way a vets is?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:25:01 GMT

I'm not saying they ae, but why should e.g. nurse clinics be free. And more to the point why shouldnt they? Why should we do 45 hrs of cpd to keep up with current practice? why should women be paid equal to men? Progression, that's why.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:18:55 GMT

[quote user="F1chick"]All I'm saying is nothing has changed in the time I've been in VN[/quote]

I am not sure why you think it should change. Nurses are providing the same service as they always have. Perhaps the general level of knowledge amonst them has improved, but the veterinary business model hasn't. We pay what the business can afford. We've been here before, many times, but I really don't know where you feel the extra money would come from. The boss really isn't taking that much profit - I promise you!

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:44:09 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

So with your current qualifications what other (higher paid) job options would be available to you?

[/quote]

But why should I have to change from a job I'm proud of? And get job satisfaction from. I'm not cut out for repping/leturing, not why I went into this. All I'm saying is nothing has changed in the time I've been in VN

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Aimee Barber — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:24:12 GMT

for most i guess it's changing to a rep, or some other form of drug company job, locuming or having to move in referral work (and some nurses love general practice) or teaching.

I get that our profession is changing and possibly too rapidly into something not needed and instead of having one salary for a vet nurse, each job role in each individual practice should be looked at. if you are in a quiet small practice you can't expect to be paid the same as a nurse with the same qualifications working in a very busy multivet practice who may have more responsibility.

and yes i do think its a case of if you dont like it lump it. but there are people being underpaid out there, they should evaluate there worth to the company and can't expect more money unless they are willing to prove they bring this in to the company. A sad fact is people are in business to make money and if they don't have to why would a boss pay you more.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:34:04 GMT

So with your current qualifications what other (higher paid) job options would be available to you?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

F1chick — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:04:29 GMT

In all honesty, if i didn't have a husband, I'd still be living at home with no prospect of moving out. When you are tol it is a 'vocaton' at school, you don't care, when you are 32 with a mortgage and debt, you care a whole lot more.

I love my job, I'm proud of my job, but I dn't like how undervalued we are. Nothing much has changed since I came in to it (been qual 11 yrs), same old moans bout same old things, it's a bit depressing.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

ShropshireLass — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:59:38 GMT

Sal, I want to hug you. Agree with every point you make.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:35:09 GMT

[quote user="Alia"]It's true, no-one forces someone to stay in a job/profession that they don't like - probably the reason that there is such a shortage of QVNs.

[/quote]

I am going to challenge this as well - if there is such a shortage why are there qualified nurses out there that cannot find work? and why are there practices that prefer not to employ them and instead are using laystaff? - I dont accept the old chestnut that laystaff are cheaper because for many laystaff their wage is at least on par with qualified nurses. Could it be that some practices are fed up of what they are having foisted on them by way of qualified staff. Veterinary nursing as it stands now is broken.Its been bigged up into something it was never intended to be and I am sorry but some people are becoming a little too 'precious'

No it isnt unreasonable to want somewhere to live and a job that will cover your life expenses - but if veterinary nursing isnt fullfilling this need then look into to doing a job that does. I know perceptions change from when you first set out but nobody has to stay on the same path if it isnt taking them where they need to be.

And no I am not against training and qualification and standardisation - but at least make the qualification relevant to what is actually required/needed.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:02:29 GMT

[quote user="Alia"]Sorry it makes you mad, however yearly salaries are what I look at ;-)[/quote]

Yes - but I am aware of some nurses who spout on about how they get paid £20,000+ but then it turns out they work 40+ hours a week including nights and weekends!

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Alia — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:30:04 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]This habit of talking about a yearly salary drives me mad - only hourly rates are comparable! The starting rate for a human nurse is £10.80.(an RN is in band 5) http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/444941/Pay_Scales_2012_Final270312.pdf They do a lot more training and, on average, work much more antisocial hours.

[/quote] Sorry it makes you mad, however yearly salaries are what I look at ;-) A RN still on average works a 38 hour week (speaking from what relatives/ friends do) so their hourly rate will be higher? No I'm not saying we are on par with nurses, besides their salaries are banded so they don't stay on the lower scale for too long. [quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Many employers in many industries pay a lot less than a liveable salary![/quote] Phew! That's okay then!! ;-) I understand that but based on training/responsibilities/registration that we have some of the salaries offered are little more than pocket money.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Alia — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:17:46 GMT

It's true, no-one forces someone to stay in a job/profession that they don't like - probably the reason that there is such a shortage of QVNs. And yes, I along with everyone else did research the job/salary factors. But can anyone really tell a 17 year old that the job they have chosen will have an impact, salary wise later in life?? I wasn't bothered about the low wage when I was younger as I was in the job I had wanted, however at 30 I don't think it's unreasonable to want somewhere to live and be able to run a car. You can't say you're at the same mindset now as you were as a trainee?

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:24:06 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

This habit of talking about a yearly salary drives me mad

[/quote]

Glad its not only me!

If people arent aware of the kind of wage they could get paid if they want to do this job then they havnt done the research. If they have done the research and know it is a wage that they feel is too low then why the hell did they decide to come into the job and train in the first place? If they already knew what to expect and they decided inspite of it they still wanted to do the job its pointless bleating about it after the event. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay in a job if they feel it cannot support them financially. Everybody has choices you either accept what is offered or find somewhere else more accommodating or look for a different line of work entirely offering better financial support . I am right out of sympathy on this one.

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:03:31 GMT

This habit of talking about a yearly salary drives me mad - only hourly rates are comparable!

So a salary of £18.000 would be a wage of just under £10/hr for a nurse that works a 35 hour week (£8.65 for a 40 hour week).

Do RVNs therefore feel their salary should be comparable to an RN's?

(Worth bearing in mind that a doctor gets substantially better paid than most vets).

[quote user="Alia"]do employers really think this is a fair liveable salary??[/quote]

Many employers in many industries pay a lot less than a liveable salary!

Re: What's changed ? And what are we doing about it ?

Alia — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:20:35 GMT

[quote user="oconnoanan"]

Horrified how poor wages can be in this profession! Job advertised today looking for a "practice manager - senior/head nurse with managerial experience " for 16-17K. I imagine even retail/fast food outlets have better paid senior staff with less years of experience/training required...

[/quote] If that's the RSPCA advert, it's a branch clinic separate to the main organisation. The salaries will be lower as the funds reflect this, rather than a private practice with paying clients. As for what salary I think a QVN should be on, I think min £18000 is fair. As others have said its a skilled job, one that does require constant learning and responsibilities so the salary should reflect this. I've been for interviews and offered £14000 as a 7 yr qualified nurse - do employers really think this is a fair liveable salary??