All we want is money

Re: All we want is money

roughcut — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 09:51:51 GMT

That was a fasinating and very informative debate there. I am pro neutering (of bitches) on the grounds that my dog got a pyo and mammary tumours, I had not been informed of the risks to her health by keeping her entire and in all honesty it is not something I would have looked up on the internet or read up about in books. I relied on my vets to give me all the relevant information on my animals health so I can make an informed decision, sadly they didn't give me the info. So a little bit of information is better than trying to enforce neutering and definitely better than no information about neutering. (this was pre VN knowledge btw).

Ruth

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 05 Oct 2012 04:51:17 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(By the way, I know we'll never persuade each other but i enjoy a good scientific debate. It's interesting getting to know the different opinions out there and I value your view here.)

[/quote]

Agreed! Sorry, forgot I'd even got into this debate - 1st week of term and running round like a headless chook! See you at BVNA this weekend perhaps?

Ps. I want my FREE Mug as we are low on them in our staff room :)

Pps. Would it be really bad to have a CAW mug in the Harper VNs staff room?!!!!

[/quote]

Oh, absolutely! I'm sure that enforcers from the Department of Mug(gle) Affairs periodically hunt through college staff rooms looking for mugs from competing organizations. You will be hauled away and fed to a large paddling of ducks. (I found out recently that a group of swimming ducks is called a 'paddling' and i've been waiting ages to use it in conversation!)

Hope you're not a repeat offender - they'll put you in with the sloth!

(joking aside, let me know it's you when you get your mug; would love to chat if we have a moment!)

Re: All we want is money

Louise B — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:47:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(By the way, I know we'll never persuade each other but i enjoy a good scientific debate. It's interesting getting to know the different opinions out there and I value your view here.)

[/quote]

Agreed! Sorry, forgot I'd even got into this debate - 1st week of term and running round like a headless chook! See you at BVNA this weekend perhaps?

Ps. I want my FREE Mug as we are low on them in our staff room :)

Pps. Would it be really bad to have a CAW mug in the Harper VNs staff room?!!!!

Re: All we want is money

Meow1950 — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:32:30 GMT

This was interesting to read and I can see both sides of the argument. I do agree though that it only takes one mistake and then you have a litter of puppies/kittens on your hands, but aside from the people part of the argument I don't think it is very fair on the animals to have to deal with urges and not being able to do what is natural, just because people don't want to neuter their pets. I can imagine it would be very frustrating for the animal. If it's not for happening then I think maybe it's just better to remove those feelings by neutering.

I wouldn't like to see my kitties going through being in heat for no reason (hypothetically speaking, as they are spayed), it just looks so uncomfortable! :(

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 17:06:43 GMT

(By the way, I know we'll never persuade each other but i enjoy a good scientific debate. It's interesting getting to know the different opinions out there and I value your view here.)

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 17:04:48 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

I don't doubt your intentions are honourable but if the resulting action is to blanketly advocate neutering to the clients that walk through your door then I think your actions are misguided.

[/quote]

Well, what do you recommend for the charity clinics, then?

Anyway, since I can't predict what each client will do in the future, I guess all I can do is plan for the worst and hope for the best. Guilty as charged, then!

Re: All we want is money

Louise B — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:56:02 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Fine by me - just that when I was in practice I worked in south Kent. Dover and Folkestone are not wealthy areas of the UK, and if you ever want to help out at the Folkestone RSPCA clinic, they'll be glad of an extra pair of hands :) I've seen loads of mismatings or outright puppy farming; pyos, irresponsible owners, the works. I've also seen caring owners who 'just let them off the lead for a minute' or a friend who came over and left the door on the latch. Life happens.

[/quote]

I have locummed in my fair share of charity clinics myself Mark so I am not naive to the problem. I also currently work closely with our local shelter where we regularly deal with the effects of irresponsible owners - but, that is predominantly what they are, irresponsible owners. Drawing upon your experiences in other countries is not very helpful in this circumstance. Street life in the sense you describe is not a reality for the UK dog population.

I don't doubt your intentions are honourable but if the resulting action is to blanketly advocate neutering to the clients that walk through your door then I think your actions are misguided.

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:44:30 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

With regards to the risk of unplanned pregnancies, I think we will have to disagree on that one Mark. I know of lots of people with entire dogs who are responsible and non of them have ever have a mismatching. I am not saying that the risk doesn't get exist - simply that it is overstated where responsible owners are concerned.

[/quote]

Before that I worked in the Middle East - and if you want to see how really bad it can be for stray cats and dogs, well, go there and look. Street life is hard.

Coming back to the UK, ask around at the rehoming charities and centres - full to bursting, many of them. Many animals were rehomed because of the economic crisis, yes - but there were thousands of unwanted animals even during the economic good times. RSPCA, Battersea, Cats Protection, Blue Cross - those are the big ones but dozens of small independent sanctuaries will tell the same story. Responsible owners? Glad you see loads of them, send them south, we need more!

You're quite right that neutering does make money; but certainly few practices (besides neutering clinics, of course!) can claim to grow wealthy on neutering alone.

You are also totally correct that firm scientific studies are needed; relying on bad research is of course not the answer.

I don't agree with very early neutering in dogs because of the incontinence article you linked to (and several others!) So I'm afraid we're agreeing to agree on this one!

Anecdotally I saw many female older entire dogs with mammary tumors, but you are 100% right to ask if they would have got it anyway. The main reasons I ever advocated neutering was control of unwanted puppies and kittens.

Anyway, so I'm probably the vet they've warned people about; but I hope you'll believe me when I say it's not because of the money, or not liking breeders, or making money off medical conditions they may develop from neutering. I honestly believe I have good intentions when I make my recommendations.

Kind regards,
Mark

Re: All we want is money

Louise B — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:23:26 GMT

And this - which leads to another discussion point:

J Small Anim Pract. 2012 Apr;53(4):198-204. doi: 10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01176.x. Epub 2012 Feb 21.

The effect of neutering on the risk of urinary incontinence in bitches - a systematic review.

Beauvais W, Cardwell JM, Brodbelt DC.

Source

Veterinary Epidemiology and Public Health Group, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 7TA.

Abstract

An increased risk of urinary incontinence in bitches has often been associated with previous ovariohysterectomy but remains controversial. The objective of this study was to evaluate the strength of evidence for an association between neutering or age at neutering and urinary incontinence in bitches and to estimate the magnitude of any effect found. A systematic review of peer-reviewed original English analytic journal articles was conducted, based on Cochrane guidelines (Higgins and Green 2009) Of 1,853 records screened, seven studies were identified that examined the effect of neutering or age at neutering on the risk of urinary incontinence but four were judged to be at high risk of bias. Of the remaining three studies, which were at moderate risk of bias, there was some weak evidence that neutering, particularly before the age of three months, increases the risk of urinary incontinence. However, overall the evidence is not consistent nor strong enough to make firm recommendations on the effect of neutering or age at neutering on the risk of urinary incontinence.

Re: All we want is money

Louise B — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:22:14 GMT

They may be heavily discounted but I refuse believe that they don't make money - and, given the fact that they are a mainstay of the ops list of most practices, I would argue that there are clearly practice benefits - whether that be financial (even if less profitable than medical ops it could be argued that lots of less profitable ops that are regular and predictable sources of income are far better than much less frequent procedures that are more profitable) or as client bonding activities.

But if Rottweillers already have a higher risk than normal, surely we should be considering the evidence that neutering greatly increases the risk of developing osteosarcoma in rottie bitches. I take your point that the evidence suggests neutering before the age of 1 yr is the greatest risk but this is all information that should be given to clients.

Staying with cancer but addressing another VN mantra when persuading clients to neuter, this abstract makes interesting reading (my bold and underlining):

J Small Anim Pract. 2012 Jun;53(6):314-22. doi: 10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01220.x.

The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs--a systematic review.

Beauvais W, Cardwell JM, Brodbelt DC.

Source

Veterinary Epidemiology and Public Health Group, Royal Veterinary College, Hawkshead Lane, North Mymms, Hatfield, Hertfordshire.

Abstract

A commonly-stated advantage of neutering bitches is a significant reduction in the risk of mammary tumours, however the evidence for this has not previously been assessed by systematic review. The objectives of this study were to estimate the magnitude and strength of evidence for any effect of neutering, or age of neutering, on the risk of mammary tumours in bitches. A systematic review was conducted based on Cochrane guidelines. Peer-reviewed analytic journal articles in English were eligible and were assessed for risk of bias by two reviewers independently. Of 11,149 search results, 13 reports in English-language peer-reviewed journals addressed the association between neutering/age at neutering and mammary tumours. Nine were judged to have a high risk of bias. The remaining four were classified as having a moderate risk of bias. One study found an association between neutering and a reduced risk of mammary tumours. Two studies found no evidence of an association. One reported "some protective effect" of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours, but no numbers were presented. Due to the limited evidence available and the risk of bias in the published results, the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary neoplasia, and the evidence that age at neutering has an effect, are judged to be weak and are not a sound basis for firm recommendations.

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:59:14 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

I think that is a very reasonable post to be honest Spud and not one that makes me feel mad at all. I have to say that I often think that we are too quick to discuss the advantages of neutering with clients. I find it very offensive when VNs try to promote neutering to clients using the 'preventing litters' arguments - it directly implies that they are irresponsible enough to let their dogs just randomly mate at will! Plus, at a talk at BSAVA we were presented with some information to suggest that the risk of osteosarcoma goes up in rottie bitches that are spayed. Further, behaviourists are increasingly lamenting the blanket neutering of male dogs as, anecdotally, it seems to make fearful males worse. At the end of the day, we do have a vested interest in neutering - it is a mainstay of many a vet practice's ops list!

[/quote]

It's not a matter of 'irresponsible', Ophelia - can you really watch a dog or a cat 24 hours a day? One day they will get out; and very often it will be because they follow the hormones. And the chances then are quite high that they will have an unwanted pregnancy.

Certainly neutering is a large part of the vet's ops list; but when you look at the prices most practices charge, they're often heavily discounted as compared to a medical operation, so the 'making money' argument doesn't stand up as well here.

Completely agree that all surgeries should be done with informed consent. That said, rottweilers have a nigher than normal risk of osteosarcoma whether or not you neuter them. (http://www.ufaw.org.uk/OSTEOSARCOMAROTTWEILER.php) - and some of the research has simply pointed out that excessively early neutering, and not simply neutering, may be the issue. http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full (abstract)

Kind regards,
Mark

Re: All we want is money

Louise B — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:23:48 GMT

Re: All we want is money

Anonymous — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:25:08 GMT

Anither reply from the weekend: I just hope you find a vet and nurse if you ever need it that you trust , i also hope you never have too use them as this would mean your little one was unwell. I didn't mean to sound patronising and I'm sorry if it came across that way, I tend to write blunter than i speak. I do think you are a bit of an evangelist about neutering though .In your own words and I have read your posts carefully. ''You always have and always will neuter your own pets'''.-- Why?? You are not a irresponsible owner are you. so why nueter every pet regardless. ?? i don't think its wrong to say , your 'free clinics' are primarily to encourage your Surgeries customers to neuter their pets. I do trust my vet surgery very much . and neither they not the nurses ever discuss neutering my animals unless i bring the subject up first. The vet nurses there are great but I would not be best pleased if one of them tried to give me unsolicited advice re neutering any of my dogs. I'm not meaning my Surgery. I'm meaning the Surgeries of so many of the new puppies owners this forum has had in the last 7yrs . Owners who come here and tell us of the pressure put on them from the first visit to get their pet neutered. i dont want to fall out with you and this is going off the opening subject.

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:35:57 GMT

In fact, if they really loved breeding puppies as much as they say they do, they'd give the puppies away for free!

Re: All we want is money

Katie Mansfield — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:17:27 GMT

If only that breeder saw as many pyos as we do........

K x

Re: All we want is money

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:58:01 GMT

Puppy mill breeders are a bit like concrete: all mixed up and permanently set ;)

Re: All we want is money

Katherine Spear — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:41:31 GMT

here here! I definitely advise neutering all round!

Re: All we want is money

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:37:18 GMT

Love the last line you have put in. X

Re: All we want is money

Julie-Anne Wilson — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:19:53 GMT

This is obviously a breeder that knows nothing about neutering for health reasons. They sound like they think we recommend it purely for reproduction purposes. To paraphrase their last sentence; they are the type of breeder I would warn puppy buyers about.