even crazier!

Re: even crazier!

Shelly vn — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:30:16 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

[quote user="ginny"]

I can't find anywhere that someone suggested anything be "dumbed down". Neither is anyone suggesting a step back. This is a complete nonesense.

As I said on the other thread about this we really do need to go back to basics and uncomplicate the training system. I think then more smaller practices would be interested in training.

There needs to be a basic VN qualification, with set entry requirements. Then have additional qualifications for specialism if thats what people want to do post qualification. Maybe even work up to degree but in my personal opinion it does not need to be a degree initially. We are in danger of losing some very good but more practical people. We have too many courses -BSc, FdBSc, NVQ, Diploma, higher education, further education....and there is too much edu - speak!

My personal view is that we need to ask ALL vets what they want a qualified nurse to do - not just what the colleges/academics think nurses should do. Vets need to be comfortable with the tasks on the syllabus as they are ultimately responsible for what staff do on their premises.

[/quote]

- spot on

[/quote]

Sal and Alison - Count me in. Ginny - i think you've summed things up perfectly!

Re: even crazier!

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 15:11:48 GMT

We all have our thoughts and experiences... equally valid. But rather than continue the discussion in this forum isn't Sal simply asking for our support so she can further the debate 'outside'? To include the vets? To question where nursing education is going and asking is it working for everyone, vets included? After all, nurses are not an island, we need the support of our partner veterinary surgeons to do our job. It's a big debate. PM Sal if that works best for you. I know she'd be glad to hear from nurses (and vets).

Ali

Re: even crazier!

zalenski81 — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:45:50 GMT

Although I can see where you're coming from with your comment, it is slightly offensive to those who didn't get the required GCSE's. I personally didn't have the maths qualification I needed. I had no idea at school which direction my life was going and having had a slightly troubled childhood meant that at that time in my life, I just didn't care. Fast forward a few years and I've now qualified and (in my opinion) I'm a pretty good nurse (I locum and keep getting asked back so I take that as a good sign!)

Yes I agree that standards need to be maintained within the nursing profession but I don't see that not having GCSEs should make too much difference, as long as potential nurses meet the required standard. A lot of people have a more hands on, practical approach to work and the way my GCSEs were just didn't reflect that.

I think that as long as a person is willing to put the effort in, the same opportunites should be available to them.

Re: even crazier!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:27:13 GMT

[quote user="ginny"]

I can't find anywhere that someone suggested anything be "dumbed down". Neither is anyone suggesting a step back. This is a complete nonesense.

As I said on the other thread about this we really do need to go back to basics and uncomplicate the training system. I think then more smaller practices would be interested in training.

[/quote]

- spot on

Re: even crazier!

Katie Mansfield — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:26:55 GMT

Thanks

K x

Re: even crazier!

molladog — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:05:30 GMT

Totally agree, + good luck for tomorrow !!

Re: even crazier!

Katie Mansfield — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 08:38:05 GMT

I have my A&P exams tomorrow for which I have absolutely worked my socks off to the point where my brain has turned to jelly and I am so stressed I can't do anything else. I totally resent the fact that people are now suggesting there should be some way that others can qualify "practically" - suggesting that there should be a way of qualifying without learning everything I've just spent most of the last few months cramming into my head.

Yes practical work is important - there's no point knowing about the inner workings of an animal's body systems if you can't clean out a kennel or restrain a cat for a b/s. However, we already have a qualification for those who are more practical than academic - it's called the VCA.

I also resent the suggestion that some degree nurses see the course as a way of reaching a "higher goal". Speak to anyone on my course - we all just want to become good nurses. Referral nurses or head nurses, some of them - and they probably will be eventually, but I haven't spoken to anybody who wants to do VN training as a way of getting into another career. Maybe we do haemorrhage nurses but then I know of three people who have done teacher training and dropped out. Another girl I know did a degree in genetic engineering - she now works for Lloyds bank. It happens in every walk of life.

The only way I can see of having a more practical training would be if we instigated a two tier level of nurse - ie the academic one or the more practical one, but as we already have the VCA why change it? Unless this is a way of encouraging all the non-qualifieds in practice to get a qualification of some sort? That can also only be a good thing.

K x

Re: even crazier!

ginny — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:03:20 GMT

We crossed posted Alison!

Well said!!

Re: even crazier!

ginny — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:00:12 GMT

I can't find anywhere that someone suggested anything be "dumbed down". Neither is anyone suggesting a step back. This is a complete nonesense.

As I said on the other thread about this we really do need to go back to basics and uncomplicate the training system. I think then more smaller practices would be interested in training.

Re: even crazier!

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:27:57 GMT

Hey Katie,

Firstly, none of what I say is to detract from the achievements of ANY nurse who has qualified or is currently studying. We are all worthy, (me included!!). I wish to press the brake on the way we are currently being educated. To pause and reflect if it is appropriate for what we are actually required to do/what is needed by our co-partners in this profession, the vets.

I agree it is entirely appropriate we should continue to improve our nursing abilities. However, I feel what Sal is saying is not about 'dumbing down' the profession, it's about finding the sympathetic level of education for nurses to achieve the abilities that vets need and concurrently satisfies the career aspirations for the nurse. Thus nurses and vets work together successfully for animal health & welfare, whilst also experiencing job satisfaction. I mean if you over-qualify for a job it's likely you won't stay (in the profession) because you feel unfulfilled? I know I have had jobs in the past where this has happened and I got frustrated by my lack of job satisfaction and/or progression when I knew I was capable of doing, and wanted to do, more. So I moaned about it for a while and then left. Our profession haemorrhages VN's to other careers because of this unfulfillment. On the other hand, some now see the nursing qualification (particularly the degree) as just a stepping stone to other careers and are lost to the profession from the get-go i.e. they were never going to stay. This will always occur to some extent but I believe this happens more frequently these days. I am not being disrespectful to degree nurses, far from it (you rock!). I am stating, realistically, that not every practice will need such extensive academic qualifications and/or be able to afford to pay you what you feel that level of achievement is worth. Of course educating yourself to enhance your nursing abilities is absolutely right and I am not advocating a stay in professional development. Simply that at the moment we are creating increasing numbers of nurses who (rightly, some might say) expect more than the profession can realistically offer them.

Additionally, we need to address the matter of practical achievement (hands on experience - it is absolutely necessary in our job, yes?). This comes with time. Academic qualifications, even being top in the country in your written exams, (me), don't add up to that much use in our job until you have married them with practical skills.

As I said, I am not anti-education. Far from it, e.g. there are post VN qualifications available to nurses who desire to step up the career ladder. The diploma (surgical/medical). For me, the important distinction between these and the current 'higher education from the start' is that the nurse has to have had some extended practical experience before he/she qualifies to begin the diploma. It is essential to have the conjoining of both academic and practical experience.

So then, who, out of you many (nurses and vets), is interested in helping to develop a 21st century nurse training programme that delivers on this? Or at least review where the current system is failing and recommend changes to the RCVS? SIgn up here now!! As Sal mentions, contact her or say on this forum you'd like to help/be part of it (in any way large or small).

Peace people.

Ali x

Re: even crazier!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:10:04 GMT

l fail to see the connection with that comment Kate and you fail to see mine.

Re: even crazier!

Katie Mansfield — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:05:42 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite VN,"]There is an amazing life-force out there that isn't in a school, university, college and if you didn't have them this country would grind to a total halt.[/quote]

That's very true - but they're not veterinary nurses.

K x

Re: even crazier!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:54:02 GMT

I left school at 15 sat my prevet nursing was in first group went through at Myerscough. We had everything but kitchen sink thrown at us, l passed first time went onto first and second year passing each first time inc. fact l was in first group that did then new portfolio and we had a damm sight more to do with logs than they ended up with. I am not a lesser nurse for doing what l did and the comments that by doing what l did dummed it down annoy me more than a tad.

Passing exams doesnt make you clever it means you managed on one day at a set time to pass l had a huge experience of animals gained the hard way from head zoo keeper to running animal rescue kennel in Tenerife to assisting with spay/neuter re release and other experience. While l appreciate academic is important to dismiss those with practical experience shows yet again what is wrong with this country. Sorry to shock all those who feel otherwise but....There is an amazing life-force out there that isn't in a school, university, college and if you didn't have them this country would grind to a total halt.

Re: even crazier!

Sal the 1st — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:19:22 GMT

I have never at any stage said that the qualifications needed to register as a trainee should be lowered - so I dont really know where that one has come from, but as I say not here to argue

Re: even crazier!

Katie Mansfield — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:13:10 GMT

I'm not negative about training everybody - it fact I firmly believe that's imperative. I just don't think we should allow people with lower academic capabilities take on VN training because that would be a huge step backwards and very harmful to the profession.

K x

Re: even crazier!

Sal the 1st — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:08:11 GMT

sorry really not interested in negative opinions anymore heard them before and we have moved past that . Not here to have to argue, if you are like minded we would love to hear from you and if you arent - well each to their own. I can respect others have a different opinion and thats ok by me

Re: even crazier!

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:32:03 GMT

Certainly worth a huddle about - more nurses in first opinion practice is a win for everyone, isn't it?

Re: even crazier!

molladog — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:17:33 GMT

Quite agree.

Re: even crazier!

Katie Mansfield — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:07:03 GMT

I think we should be looking to raise standards and make VNs more professional with better qualifications, not to lower standards, by making it open to ppl who can't even get the required GCSE's to enter into training as it is at the moment. Why dumb it down? How is that going to be of any benefit to practices or the patients?

Having said that I do think everyone who works in practice should have some kind of qualification - ACA level at least - so we can offer clients a service that is worth the huge amount of money they pay in fees. But that won't make everyone a "nurse".

K x