Raw feeding

Re: Raw feeding

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 02:27:32 GMT

Maybe no raw, but I feed my dogs a varied diet.. ( 2 rotties) and we know how bad they are for tummy upsets..... mine have never had a severe tummy upset. My thinking and something I learned on CPD... feed them a varied diet to ensure the gut flora is also varied.I chop and change at the drop of a hat with mine, they get everything going ( Even Ruby the renal failure dog, who has a stable biochemistry AND HAS HAD FOR YEARS). I really do find it hard to talk about and rec vet diets at work.... personally I think most are a con and jumpin on the bandwagon of complete diets, I cannot lie to the client... I avoid nutrition consults at all costs as it goes against what I believe.

Re: Raw feeding

Sal the 1st — Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:14:29 GMT

one of my cats has the best of both worlds - cat food at home supplemented with fresh caught bunny when the mood takes him (at least 2-3 times a week). Have to say his coat condition has improved loads since he started the rabbit diet.

Re: Raw feeding

funkyfish — Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:33:39 GMT

Interesting thought- if we fed domestic cats a raw diet- frozen (but thawed) rats/rabbits/day old chicks would they have as many tooth/health probs? They are muchless changed then dogs- would they do better? Many owners who talk about raw feeding their dogs are horrified if I ask if they raw feed their cats!

I'm not completely against raw/home cooked food, if done right. I'm sure many pets do better on it. BUT it winds me up when people say they r doing the best for their dogs and try n guilt trip me cos I feed mine Chappie, when they just feed their dogs raw bones and chickens with no veg or vits and mins!

Re: Raw feeding

funkyfish — Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:27:30 GMT

Hi right, to start I have only scanned through the replies but here is my 10ps worth!

1) Dogs and wolves evolved along the same branch- dogs did not evolve from wolves they evolved from a common ancestor but split off. Think about it, evolution takes like thousands of years and wolves and dogs exist now, there has been no time gap between the two species. Yes different species! are Horses and Donkeys the same- no, but they looks kind of similar and eat some of the same things.

2) a dogs natural diet/life style is scavenging streets/rubbish dumps. (Coppinger &Coppinger). Have you ever seen a street dog? They are thin, mangy and not in tip top health. BUT they are living a natural life- would I want my pets to live a natural life- hell NO!

3) wolves (canis Lupis) are mostly carnivores, dogs (canis Familaris) are omnivores.

Cooking food makes many nutrients easier to access for the body fact! Also dogs can and will get nasty diseases and worms from raw food, which are potentially zoonotic.

For more info on dogs and their natural lifestyle/diet and behaviour try reading Coppinger & Coppinger-

Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour, and Evolution [Paperback]

Ray Coppinger (Author), Lorna Coppinger (Author)

Or John Bradshaw's book-In defence of dogs and Patricia McConnal's The other end of the leash.

We have changed everything about dogs. Have you seen how small a boxers teeth are? how can they crunch bones?

Re: Raw feeding

Katie Mansfield — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:37:59 GMT

I changed my dogs over to raw 3 yrs ago cos the Beagle was fat and this was a suggestion from our vet. They get frozen meat out of PAH (I'm a veggie and couldn't bear raw carcus knocking about the house!) I add veg to it and make sure they don;t get the same meat week in, week out so they get all the right nutrients and I never feed tripe cos of the Ca:P ratio. Both dogs are doing really well - Chloe the Beagle lost weight and neither of them have been ill since starting it :)

The cats (we have 5) I wouldn't change over cos they're all old and decrepit - my no longer with us oldest two, one had bowel cancer and the other hyperthyroidism so had to be really careful what I fed them and it was just easier to keep them on Royal Canin sensitivity. Given the chance though, the youngest (aged 10) goes and gets his own raw diet in the shape of rats/mice/birds!!!

K x

Re: Raw feeding

mrsspider — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:12:28 GMT

I have just started feeding my 2 cats a raw food diet, one of them is diabetic and so raw feeding means that I can be sure that he is avoiding any sugars, cereals etc which all upset his sugar levels. My diabetic cat also had problems with an intolerance to tinned food, since he has been on the raw diet he has put on weight and any signs of dietary intolerances have dissapeared. His blood sugars are much more stable and I am hopeful that eventually he will be insulin free again. I think a raw diet Is a great idea and there are lots of companies out there doing all the prep etc so it is just as easy as using tinned food.

Re: Raw feeding

Emma Bartlett — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:30:42 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]very few people are as dedicated as you![/quote]

Tell me about it.....it took quite a bit of time to get into a routine! My husband was complaining the other day that we were having sandwiches for tea and the dogs were having venison, i didn't dare tell him that they had pheasant for breakfast!!

I feed my cats on hills biscuits as my male cat will only eat certain meats and i don't feel that it will be balanced enough so he just helps himself to what he fancies from the dogs bowls!!

Re: Raw feeding

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:15:18 GMT

[quote user="Emma Bartlett"]why not tell them your concerns and help point them in the right direction of finding out more information so they can get it right[/quote]

oh I do.....I am happy to discuss it. When I start talking about exactly what they need to feed 9/10 change their minds... very few people are as dedicated as you!

Re: Raw feeding

Emma Bartlett — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:17:24 GMT

I also feed raw and have done for over 5 years. I was very wary of changing at first as i felt i would not be able to balance the diet and i was worried i would do more harm than good but after lots of research i decided to give it a go!! I love it, they get a huge variety of food (including beaks, feet, fur and feathers!) I started when my female rottie was given months to live after being diagnosed with osteosarcoma, she had her leg amputated as palliative care and i took her to a 'holistic' vet for gentle treatments to keep her comfortable. He suggested a raw diet and i went with it as she loved the food and it was only for a few months. .......and i am still feeding her raw diet 5 years later!

I give my dogs a wide varierty of raw foods so i feel happy in my own mind that it is balanced and that i have all bases covered but I would never try to persuade a client to feed raw but i would offer advice if they brought it up or were already feeding it. I fully understand the concerns that you guys have as they were my concerns when i started and i couldn't watch when i first gave them chicken wings. I think that owners need to make informed choices, if they really don't want to feed their pets a commercial diet then why let them carry on feeding just steak or chicken which is going to cause problems, why not tell them your concerns and help point them in the right direction of finding out more information so they can get it right

Re: Raw feeding

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:52:39 GMT

Absolutely Mark - we both know this can be a heated debate. I did say that in some dogs RMB is a reasonable diet, and will certainly lead to better teeth (except for the odd fracture.. ) but as far as commercial diets being harmful in some way, I need better evidence.

I think that expecting Joe Public to go back to a RMD and to do it properly is unlikely - we'd be back to seeing rickets daily in no time! Plus the increased incidence of food poisoning in owners!

I had an owner who insisted on feeding her cat raw chicken breast. I couldn't understand why the cat always had diarrhoea as, in theory, this shouldn't be a problem with protein. Until I asked for her feeding regime in detail:

In the evening she takes a chicken breast from her freezer, puts it on a plate and allows it to defrost on the kitchen worktop overnight.

In the morning she dices it and puts it in the cats bowl. The cat then grazes on it all day, rarely finishing it before the evening.

Wonder why it had the squits constantly....

Re: Raw feeding

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:50:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

It helps that IMHO processed diets have done more to improve pet health (and people's for that matter) over the last 50 years than anything we vets have done!

[/quote]

It's an interesting point; I know a few RMB enthusiasts that point to all the new diseases we're discovering in dogs and cats. Of course, 50 years ago you didn't have pets living long enough to develop these exotic diseases!

Nutrition and common sense can live together. I know pets living on processed food who are the very picture of health. I also know pets on RMB diets who are equally healthy. (Again, my personal opinion.)

Re: Raw feeding

Steph Worsley — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:24:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Try offering a wolf a chicken to chase, catch and eat as well as a bowl of dog food and see which one he eats...

[/quote]

Lol Good point......you see where I was coming from though....trying to see both sides....damn being a typical libran that way

Re: Raw feeding

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:49:33 GMT

[quote user="Steph Worsley"]There are arguments for and against it just like everything but my stand is that yes dogs were bred from wolves (which is many peoples reasoning behind feeding this sort of food)......many many many years ago and now very few dogs have the same jaw shape/strength that wolves do so should we be feeding them a diet of raw factory farmed animals which probably don't contain the same nutrients that the wild animals that wolves eat?????[/quote]

Try offering a wolf a chicken to chase, catch and eat as well as a bowl of dog food and see which one he eats...

Wolves eat raw animals because that is all that is available to them. Not because they prefer it!

I personally feel that feeding a raw diet in selected breeds is a reaonable choice, but it has to be the whole carcase (including guts), not just the meat. It also has to be freshly killed to avoid the inevitable contamination in the abbatoir, cutting plant and the butchers. It also needs to be fed outside to avoid your dog dragging chicken guts, with associated bugs, across your lounge floor.

Wouldn't fancy doing it myself.

It helps that IMHO processed diets have done more to improve pet health (and people's for that matter) over the last 50 years than anything we vets have done!

Re: Raw feeding

Charmaloo88 — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:47:35 GMT

This will always be a huge debate I think. Feeding raw meat and nothing else is NOT a balanced diet. If clients want to feed raw chicken because it's cheap I say thats fine....but they need to feed the WHOLE chicken - feathers, bones, beak and all. Usually puts them off as they don't like the idea of precious little Barney ripping a dead chicken to pieces.

BARF diet....I hate. If you research the guy who invented it he claims it's the best diet out there (only if prepared with supplements that only HE sells) as well as saying diets sold in vets (e.g. Hills) are carcinogenic and only sold by us to keep animals sick and thus keep us in business. He also claims that we invented hyperthyroidism in cats to make money. Go figure....

Re: Raw feeding

Steph Worsley — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:09:19 GMT

Yep, seen a huge rise in the number of dogs being fed RMB or BARF, personally I don't like it and have seen so many patients with chronic D+ that with a standard pre-prepared diet clears up, the O takes them away starts feeding the old food and wonders why the D+ comes back

There are arguments for and against it just like everything but my stand is that yes dogs were bred from wolves (which is many peoples reasoning behind feeding this sort of food)......many many many years ago and now very few dogs have the same jaw shape/strength that wolves do so should we be feeding them a diet of raw factory farmed animals which probably don't contain the same nutrients that the wild animals that wolves eat?????

Supplementation of vits/minerals is ok as long as it is done correctly!!!!

Re: Raw feeding

Kim Buckley — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:04:53 GMT

When I was in general practice, there was definately an increase in the amount of dogs being fed a RAW diet. I also noticed that quite a few young large breed dogs on these diets were being presented with orthopeadic problems. Coincidence?

I have nothing against RAW diets if the owner has done their research and are doing it correctly. Feeding them excusively on raw steak isn't the way to do it though and I have seen owners do just this.

Personally I feed my dogs on a mixture of good quality dry and wet food and don't see any problems with it. It's convenient, cheaper, my dogs like it and I know they are getting all the nutrients they need. One of them is nearly 16 and touch wood never had any health issues so must be doing something right.

Re: Raw feeding

Julie-Anne Wilson — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:44:46 GMT

I suppose a raw meat diet would be alright as long as the person remembers that other vitamins and minerals are needed and adds them into the diet. Feeding JUST raw meat? No.

Re: Raw feeding

Nicola Russell — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:43:41 GMT

I know someone who raises pigs for meat, her dogs get the leftovers, can often see them gnawing on a jaw bone

Re: Raw feeding

Clare Armstrong — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:38:14 GMT

I am a vet nurse and I feed all my 3 dogs on raw meat I can highly reccomend it!!!! My dogs thrive

Re: Raw feeding

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:07:33 GMT

[quote user="Victoria Nielsen RVN MBVNA"]There is a huge debate on this issue but I personally don't see a problem unless it's cooked, that's where it becomes an issue due to splinters etc but when it's raw, the bones don't splinter. [/quote]

Raw chicken served with a side of E coli, Salmonella, Crypto.......

Re: Raw feeding

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:03:50 GMT

There is a company called Honeys and they send a pre prepared raw diet l like that idea and have seen the food they send out, if l ever got another dog but no plans to ever have another animal yes l would look into it. Just bones l would tend to avoid.

Re: Raw feeding

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:40:31 GMT

My mother feeds all of her dogs on raw chicken wings and they've never had a problem over the years. I wouldn't feed my animals on raw chicken wings personally but it's a cheap and the most natural way of feeding them as after all dogs descend from the wolves and they feed on raw meat in the wild so I think this is where it comes from.

There is a huge debate on this issue but I personally don't see a problem unless it's cooked, that's where it becomes an issue due to splinters etc but when it's raw, the bones don't splinter.

I think dogs may not get all they need with just raw chicken wings from a veterinary point of view but I've had to overlook a lot of what my mother does!!! A lot of what she does is against my beliefs as a veterinary nurse!!! But all of the dogs are thriving and heading into their older years and haven't had any issues health wise so can't be all bad.