crazy!

Re: crazy!

Helen Tottey — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 11:14:34 GMT

[quote user="meep_ kitten"]

So if there are apparently over 1000 RVN vacancies that can't be filled, and a high drop out of qualified nurses leaving the field due to poor working conditions, low salaries, etc? Maybe we should be lobbying to have RVNs recognised for the job that they do and compensated accordingly??

[/quote]

Isn't this what the petition is all about?

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/18700

Re: crazy!

meep_ kitten — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:00:50 GMT

Re: crazy!

jane Lewis — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 13:36:43 GMT

I have read through all the posts and think some very valid points have been made. I personally feel that what we need is not a change in the available types of courses or even a reduction in those available but more a uniform standardised syllabus that can be applied throughout all courses. I think at present the course contents are so different that it is difficult for standardisation. I know through my own experience havin completed my nvq 2 and 3, plus my rcvs exams alongside rvn degree (because rcvs didn't recognise degree as enough to qualify me as rvn) that the content between the two course types varied wildly. I feel there should be a standardised basic syllabus for all the courses to adhere to that can be built on (more in depth theoretical knowledge) for the higher level courses such as degrees. To be honest I don't think which way you qualify has any affect on the standard of vn produced, experience is the thing most employers look for. I think really alot of the problem is keeping qualified nurses in the profession, we ought to look at why people leave. I know a lot of it is salary orientated and yes we all know the salary expectations but as we do hav families or want to live independently the wages are not often high enough and many seek to move on to other areas of the veterinary profession (repping, lecturing etc). It's a job that requires a lot of commitment from start to finish, and I think if we make it easier to qualify we wil actually possibly make this situation worse as at present the training difficulties weed out alot of those who would not stick at the profession in the longer term.

Re: crazy!

ginny — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 10:28:30 GMT

[quote user="Gemma Burden RVN"]But what is so inappropriate - asking someone to be able to carry out calculations, to understand why we are doing things and having the knowledge to explain things to our clients? [/quote]

This isnt what is being said here. Calculations and a knowledge of medical and surgical conditions are basic common sense nursing.

We need to go back to basics - this does not mean making things easier.

There are too many courses, too many colleges doing there own thing. We need to go back to basics and ask the vets what they want rather than running before we can walk.

Re: crazy!

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:17:25 GMT

So we have an argument for the practical ace but less academic student and also an argument for 'maintaining standards' and keeping higher education in the same thread. Yes, this is the confusion in the profession that I'd like to see sorted out once and for all, maybe?!? Please see my post in 'Even Crazier'. Hope this explains my views...

Ta.

Ali x

Re: crazy!

Gemma Burden RVN — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:59:36 GMT

[quote user="Lor12"]

[quote user="Gemma Burden RVN"]

We already have the ANA for those that are not able to go straight in on the nursing course.

[/quote]

Can I just comment on the ANA course. By having that course it allows people who yes maybe didn't do as well in school as others to be given a chance to succeed and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am one of those that at school was not very academic (too many other things to be doing), I realised that I would not qualify for the NVQ when I left school so moved on to other things. I got drawn back though at the age of 19 as it was what I really wanted to do and I enrolled on the ANA and here I am today a RVN!

What I am saying is that some people may see the ANA as an easy route for people that are classed as not inteeligent enought but for many people its a chance to get their dream career. I may not have put the effort in at school and achieve A grades but I managed a distinction in the ANA and a credit in the NVQ so I'm not too dumb to be a VN!

[/quote]

I completely agree with this, I work with a student nurse who is currently coming to the end of the ANA and is determined to become a qualified nurse. Yes we are having some problems with maths, but she is so determined to learn and make sure that she is a good nurse that she is going to get maths tuition, and although she knows she is going to find the nursing course hard work, she is so determined to achieve her dream that she has told me she will do whatever she has to to get there. The ANA has really helped her . If someone is willing to put the work in then they will get there in the end.

Re: crazy!

Lor12 — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:53:42 GMT

[quote user="Gemma Burden RVN"]

We already have the ANA for those that are not able to go straight in on the nursing course.

[/quote]

Can I just comment on the ANA course. By having that course it allows people who yes maybe didn't do as well in school as others to be given a chance to succeed and there is nothing wrong with that.

Re: crazy!

Gemma Burden RVN — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:45:34 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

Gemma,

not easier, just more appropriate.

Ali x

[/quote]

But what is so inappropriate - asking someone to be able to carry out calculations, to understand why we are doing things and having the knowledge to explain things to our clients? There are a lot of people that drop out of vet school each year as well and even more that are unable to get in, but no one ever suggests changing their training or having different levels so that everyone that wants to do the job can have one suited to them.

Re: crazy!

Katie Mansfield — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:35:07 GMT

[quote user="Gemma Burden RVN"]I am finding it really hard to believe that there are VNs out there who worked hard for their qualification that think that we should be making things easier. We already have the ANA for those that are not able to go straight in on the nursing course. VNs have worked hard to try and gain the respect from clients that they deserve and making things easier so that those that dont meet the current criteria can becomes a nurse is not going to help us. I know the drop out levels for training are high, but is this really just down to the course? How many of these drop out as nursing isnt what they thought it would be, can't survive on the wages, have a change in lifestyle, get pregnant, or are just not committed enough to complete their training? The training has been changed so many times now with a high number of nurses dropping out so the course cant be the only problem.[/quote]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K x

Re: crazy!

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:34:37 GMT

Gemma,

not easier, just more appropriate.

Ali x

Re: crazy!

Gemma Burden RVN — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:15:16 GMT

I am finding it really hard to believe that there are VNs out there who worked hard for their qualification that think that we should be making things easier. We already have the ANA for those that are not able to go straight in on the nursing course. VNs have worked hard to try and gain the respect from clients that they deserve and making things easier so that those that dont meet the current criteria can becomes a nurse is not going to help us. I know the drop out levels for training are high, but is this really just down to the course? How many of these drop out as nursing isnt what they thought it would be, can't survive on the wages, have a change in lifestyle, get pregnant, or are just not committed enough to complete their training? The training has been changed so many times now with a high number of nurses dropping out so the course cant be the only problem.

Re: crazy!

meep_ kitten — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 11:30:18 GMT

[quote user="Katie Mansfield"]

I actually think it's better if ppl self-fund their VN training. That doesn't put any pressure on training practices and shows how willing/keen/determined to qualify the student is. (Soz, Sal, "Trainee" - why don't you like "student", btw??).

However self-funding only works for HE courses and the under 19s doing a Level 3 Diploma who live with parents - wouldn't be possible for the Level 3 for anyone over 19 cos of the way Student Finance works (unless they're on benefits or very rich).

The course I'm on sends us out on placements so for 3 month stints the practices that take us on get a free (of cash, not time) extra member of staff. I think this would work very well across the board - for practices.

K x

[/quote]

I think it would be fine to self-fund training to cover cost of college fees. But if you are working full time for a practice it would be nice to be paid for the hours you are there - just to keep a roof over your head!! Surely that's the point of day release - so that you're working and earning and getting hands on experience?

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 20:21:19 GMT

bump - so that people who are interested can find it that bit easier

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 May 2012 16:28:07 GMT

[quote user="ginny"]

I think wires may have become a bit crossed somewhere - by saying we need to go back to basics does not mean we need to go backwards. We just need to move away from having so many courses - foundation degrees, honours degrees, level 3 etc . Full time, placement, apprentices.... I don't care who's green book, portfolio, degree or NPL. No one is any better than the other - as the above post says qualifying is just the start.

I do feel that we are going to lose an awful lot of very practical people if we make things too academic. I'm not talking about untrained nurses doing the job of VN's but good potential VN students. Also not every potential VN student can afford to work for free.

I really think the vets need to decide what they want because it seems to me that there are nurses in colleges/academia (especially those offering HE courses) that have decided what they think nurses should be doing and run with it. I completely agree that as a profession we need to advance but not without the backing of the vets - all vets - even the ones in so called smaller practices. It won't work otherwise.

[/quote]

yes that is what I was proposing a basic qualification that can be built on as required, I dont see it as a backwards step more like getting more people onto the first step. I wasnt suggesting a dumbing down, but making the qualification more relevant to every practice. The only reason I mentioned the green book was that training then was a lot less complicated and pricey and yet it still turned out decent nurses - there were a lot more training practices then and the qualification was far more practical. And I agree that the vets (all vets ) should decide what they want rather than being forced into something they dont want which makes them back out of training - if the vets arent for this it wont fly which is why I asked in the first place. I just find it crazy that on one hand we have a shortage but on the other we are preventing people from training because there are too many hoops for both trainee and practice to jump through. How can people complain that there are unqualifieds doing their job when the same people are making it impossible for many trainees to train? If there is one basic low cost qualification and easier access to it then there would then be less reason for people not to train, and fewer reasons for practices not to train.

Re: crazy!

ginny — Sun, 06 May 2012 15:11:11 GMT

Re: crazy!

Helen Tottey — Sun, 06 May 2012 12:15:43 GMT

In my opinion qualifying and passing whatever exams is only the start and experience built up over the years surely does count HOWEVER that builds on the qualification so while nursing assistants have years of experience they do not have the qualification and background knowledge that is so important.

Also, i am sure we already have differing levels of qualificaitons in the nursing assistant cours, VN qualifiaciotn (green book, NPL or whatever style) and the degree so i don;t think we need another basic level of qualification but clearere guidelines so in the future the nurse qualifiaction could advance further and not go backwards. this would help reduce the numbers of experienced qualified nurses leaving practice because they do not see that the years of training gets them anywhere.

We don't live in an ideal world but that dosn't mean we shouldn't strive to do the best we can. More practices need to offer training and hopefully that will increase in time. and as previously mentioned, i don't think there is anything wrong with a non paid placement - my student isn't paid and she is happy with that as she see's it as the path she is on to do the training and qualification that she has chosen to do towards her future career.

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 May 2012 10:06:16 GMT

but would it? Surely if you get more people past the basics, those that want to progress will do so by furthering their learning - wont that increase the overall level of relevant expertise in a practice?

Re: crazy!

Katie Mansfield — Sun, 06 May 2012 09:59:17 GMT

Surely if qualifying becomes easier the level of expertise will diminish? That seems to be a big step backwards. However, I do think everyone in practice should have to undergo some level of training - after the public are paying huge bills to have their pets treated and they deserve trained staff to justify those fees. In my opinion VCA should be the minimum level for anyone working in practice.

However, whatever gets put in place I'm not very optimistic that it'll ever change the way some practices have VCAs performing VN tasks like placing catheters or taking XRays.

K x

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 May 2012 09:53:13 GMT

well I have no objection - so long as nurses actually have access to it! I would like to hear what the vet opinion is because it will only be by vets and nurses working together on this that we are going to get something meaningful to both and if that results in more nurses training then that to me has to be a good thing.

Re: crazy!

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 05 May 2012 21:11:17 GMT

Message All and to Arlo:

Would we mind if this thread is copied to Vetsurgeon.org, for their input? Arlo, is it possible for this thread be copied to Vetsurgeon.org???

Cheers.

Ali

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 05 May 2012 19:26:25 GMT

[quote user="chris beasley RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]BTW by basic I am meaning on the level of the old green book - and there was nothing wrong with that system, it turned out some decent nurses at a decent standard, with a lot less fuss and palaver than we have no[/quote]

The problem is how to achieve this within practice which does not occur extra costs like external verifiers.

I would love my current practice to become a training practice but the expense would be immense. That would mean less wages, its a never ending circle!

[/quote]

Did we have external verifiers with the green book - I cant remember any. You are right there is now huge expense for practices training nurses, how much of this expense is actually justified? and what could be dispensed with?

It would be interesting to hear some more vet thoughts on this - would they be more interested in training nurses if it wasnt so expensive and does the current qualification give them what they need in practice nursing wise or would they prefer a more basic level of qualification?

Re: crazy!

chris beasley — Sat, 05 May 2012 18:38:11 GMT

This is how I trained and also trained many more nurses. It did work! But !!! A big problem is that to be recognised as professionals it needs to go further. The problem is how to achieve this within practice which does not occur extra costs like external verifiers.

I would love my current practice to become a training practice but the expense would be immense. That would mean less wages, its a never ending circle!

Re: crazy!

Fuzzyduck — Sat, 05 May 2012 16:30:12 GMT

The new qualification, although not in any way perfect is trying to make it easier for people to qualify.

Many colleges at least the ones in my part of the country are offering to find students unpaid placements within practice. Although this isnt going to benefit everyone as the student has to fund the course fees, it is easier to find an unpaid placement in practice and complete the course this way. In my practice we have a couple of unpaid placement students along with unpaid degree students.

Maybe the trainees/students have to take more responsibility to pay for their own training rather than expecting practices to pay for it? Or pay part of the cost? Perhaps this will encourage more practices to take on trainees, as after all what practice wants to pay to train a student nurse for them to then leave?

There arent an awful lot of professions i can think of where the employer funds the students training

Re: crazy!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 05 May 2012 15:25:28 GMT

[quote user="Fuzzyduck"]

Sorry Sal but i couldnt disagree more, if anything the VN qualification needs to become more advanced because the world of veterinary medicine is becoming more advanced. Clients expect and want more for their animals.

Vets are busier and rely on their nurses even more, so the nurse has got to be up to scratch and a good and high level of knowledge is the absolute basis.

Of course there will always be smaller practices who are not up to the level of most places but these are the practices who currently employ untrained unqualified 'nurses' or just VCAs acting as RVNs and i dont think alot will ever change that.

Vets and Nurses should be striving to become better, more knowledgable and achieve a higher standard for clients and pets, not going backwards, and i hope im not the only person who thinks this otherwise im very disappointed in how the profession is thinking.

I worked damn hard for my qualification and subsequent qualifications and dont think there should be people doing the same job as me but with less knowledge

[/quote]

and thats fine -I was looking for opinions for and against . But are you saying the way forward is to carry on now forever 'advancing' (complicating) the qualification and making it even harder to qualify when there is already such an apparent shortage of qualified nurses? Because if this is the case isnt there always going to be a shortage and isnt there always going to be the need for unqualified staff? So how is that going to help? What I am suggesting is a basic qualification that can be built on to what an individual needs or a practice requires not a basic qualification and thats it.

I understand you have worked hard for your qualification - believe it or not I did too, but there are already people out there doing the same job as us with no qualification and some of them really good at it too. If you can get more people to at least a basic level and in practice isnt that better than having people who are keen to learn giving up because its so damn hard to get a placement?

BTW by basic I am meaning on the level of the old green book - and there was nothing wrong with that system, it turned out some decent nurses at a decent standard, with a lot less fuss and palaver than we have now.

Re: crazy!

Helen Tottey — Sat, 05 May 2012 15:22:06 GMT

[quote user="Fuzzyduck"]

I worked damn hard for my qualification and subsequent qualifications and dont think there should be people doing the same job as me but with less knowledge

[/quote]

STRONGLY AGREE!

i also accept we do need decent nursing assistants that VN's should be able to work with and delegate certain things to as vets should be able to do with Registered/Qualified VN's.

When i have talked to clients about the petition they are often shocked to learn that our title isn't protected and there are nurses out there doing jobs they are not properly trained or qualified to do. As you say, clients want and expect more from us so we should be moving forward and not backwards. My personal view is we need to work towards nurses being able to give boosters......