unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Angiy Michael — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:11:51 GMT

I can def answer for CVS..we seem to have students coming out of our ears at the mo !

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Dippy — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:15:58 GMT

Gillian

I have locumed at several Companion care surgeries who all had trainees but have not come across any at the Vets4Pets anywhere I've worked in.

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Emma Jarratt — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:32:19 GMT

[quote user="Jenny T"]

Unless listed/registered with RCVS or enrolled as a student VN, then you SHOULD NOT be administering medications, placing i/v catheters, taking blood samples. Anyone the vet feels is competent to do so can monitor an anaesthetic.

[/quote]

Agreed with the above. There was talk of a 'certificate of competence in monitoring veterinary anaesthesia' a while back to ensure practices that couldn't get VNs/RVNs could at least prove competency of unqualified staff monitoring anaesthetics, don't know what happened with that.

Also - calculating drug dosages etc - the prescription of the drug has to be by the VS, ie VS can say 'please admin 2mg/kg of X drug im to Y patient' and VN can calculate and administer. Hence ok for VN to calculate & administer triple, if the vet has prescribed it at certain dose (in most cases standard doses off charts I guess). The VS should have examined the animal immediately prior to prescribing a drug or recently enough to have up to date knowledge of the animal's condition. Not ok for VN to administer iv anaesthetic to effect, as the VS is prescribing as they administer and using their judgement on how much to give.

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:17:53 GMT

Are the JVP practices (companion care, vets4pets) and CVS training students? As they are now massive in terms of numbers of practices, and as a percentage of total practices, them not training could have an impact?

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Maisy — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:21:21 GMT

Difficult one really as I think there are still a lot of TPs around though only 1-2 SVNs may be employed at any one time. The corporate groups in this region (Pet Doctors/Medivet/Goddards) still all train I think but for some of the smaller branches I guess they can only have the minimum amount of students. My practice in particular still trains and there are always new students brought in where possible and all vets/VNs are encouraged to do their A1 training. I can sympathise fully with potential SVNs as it seems a lot more difficult generally to get their foot in the door than it was when I started off.

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:13:30 GMT

This is entirely based on my own limited experience, but although more VNs are needed to fill the large void in qualified staff, it seems to me that less and less practices are TPs?? Do the large corporate practices still train? Are the numbers of trainees in proportion to the number of total staff (ie. a 10 practice chain should have more than just a couple of TPs/students). Or do you feel there is still plenty of training going on??

Also, although there is now the option of full time VN training, we get a lot of requests for placements to fulfil the practical aspect of the course & complete the portfolio. I have to say no, because I honestly couldn't find extra time for them and it wouldn't be fair to them or my current students. I am the only assessor in a small 4 vet practice. Thus I am not sure this extra route is going to be the solution? What are other's experiences?

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Dippy — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:10:37 GMT

Most of the practices I have worked/locumed in have unqualifieds (notice the lack of "nurse" word!) doing the above calculations/procedures and rarely getting checked by vets. The thing which worries me more is that once the registered part of our title kicks in properly with all its legal implications in 2010, does this mean that if we are in theatre and an unqualified colleague calculates, draws up and then administers the premeds/triples etc for us, are we then the one the buck stops with if anything goes wrong? I can see it being an issue if we have to disappear to go and recalculate everything to make sure it's right when we have this sytem in order to save time and make sure the next animal is ready when the vet has finished the previous op?

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:21:21 GMT

Stick with auxillary l know l am pedantic but there is still the nurse in the title and confusion err if that is ok? (dont want to stand on toes again)

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Claire Cameron — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:09:59 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

the title 'veterinary nurse' being legally protected - well I wont hold my breath

[/quote]

Mmmm....... something tells me the same Sal

[/quote]

me too, i wont hold my breath either or i think we'd all be a shade of blue by the time that title gets legally protected!

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:09:05 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

the title 'veterinary nurse' being legally protected - well I wont hold my breath

[/quote]

Mmmm....... something tells me the same Sal

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Sal the 1st — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:07:58 GMT

maybe that was me - but just to make it clear when I call somebody a nurse in veterinary practice I mean qualified nurse, without qualification I would call them student nurse or auxilliary nurse.

the title 'veterinary nurse' being legally protected - well I wont hold my breath

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:07:03 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I don't - I wouldn't want to undermine the hard work put in to get the title. I employ 'vet nurses' and 'animal nurses' and only a VN can wear green.

[/quote]

hehe, unless, like me you have grown out of your greens!! Well, the tunic anyway. Mmmm something tells me I need to lose weight!!

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:06:17 GMT

oops - the above comment was regarding using the titl Vet Nurse

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:05:54 GMT

To my knowledge Gillian, I also have not heard of a nurse being brought before a disciplinary hearing either

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:05:45 GMT

I don't - I wouldn't want to undermine the hard work put in to get the title. I employ 'vet nurses' and 'animal nurses' and only a VN can wear green.

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:03:58 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]I am pretty sure the buck would stop with the VS on duty at the time?[/quote]

As far as I am concerned, the buck always stops with me, regardless of the status of my nurse. Hence why I base my decision on my own observation of the staff member. This also means I don't necessarily trust a QVN either! I employed a QVN for a short length of time who mixed up 2 drugs and gave a 10x overdose of an injectable hormonal preparation - luckily with no adverse effects. If it had been an anaesthetic....

Also, I have yet to see any disciplinary action brought against a nurse - for anything. But I may just be ignorant of it...

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Claire Cameron — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:01:53 GMT

[quote user="Jenny T"]

Please do not use the title "veterinary nurse" if not qualified to do so. This is against RCVS advice, misleading to the public and very annoying to nurses who have worked hard to gain the qualification. It is hoped that soon the title "veterinary nurse" will become legally protected, as it is with veterinary surgeons.

[/quote]

Sorry I didnt realise I had used the term Veterinary Nurse, if I did it was out of lack of concentration. I meant nurse (auxillary nurse)

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Jenny T — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:59:48 GMT

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:58:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

But for litigation reasons in the event of a problem...you have encouraged me to look into this further!

[/quote]

I am pretty sure the buck would stop with the VS on duty at the time?

Incidentally, I am a RVN

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Claire Cameron — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:58:23 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

as I understood it - and I may be wrong - triple combo would be allowed because you are administering a set amount , however i/v anaesthetic which is administered incrementally or to effect should not be administered by a nurse as this is not a set amount and there is more room for error. Happy to accept corrections on this - this is just what I have been told

[/quote]

sounds reasonable...even an unregistered unqualified? x

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Sal the 1st — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:56:45 GMT

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Claire Cameron — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:50:30 GMT

ridiculous

does anyone know about calculating and administering pre-med or GA (triple combo) im almost certain triple combo is a big no no!! even for QVN?

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Maisy — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:48:06 GMT

Administering medication certainly falls under Sch3 but strangely monitoring anaesthesia doesn't! As long as anaesthesia is monitored by someone suitably trained, all is okay apparently.

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Claire Cameron — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:47:57 GMT

Merci Beaucoup xx

Re: unregistered, unqualified nurse......advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:46:27 GMT

In an ideal world, all nurses working in practice would be RVNs (and that is something I am happy to work towards) but unfortunately the numbers just don't add up. There are simply not enough RVNs for all the practices in the UK. Therefore most practices have to rely on unqualified personnel. As far as what they are allowed to do - sticky issue. I must admit I am not aware of the exact rules for the procedures you mention (but I should probably find out...) and I simply base my decisions on my observation of the member of staff concerned's skills. But for litigation reasons in the event of a problem...you have encouraged me to look into this further!