Is it really justified?

Re: Is it really justified?

Saz jam — Sat, 05 May 2012 20:15:07 GMT

I have a very anxious JRT X, we have had her from 8 weeks old and was super socialised, trained etc and started to develop anxious behaviours around age 1. I am very lucky to work with a vet who is studying behaviour and after speaking to the owner of her parents, came to the conclusion that this developing behaviour was genetic. Although she is not aggressive I could see it going that way if we left her and could never take the risk that one day could bite someone.

We tried Zylkene, which chilled her out a bit, she became phobic of the DAP collar so we couldn't use that anymore so after careful consideration the Vet suggested we try Prozac. We have had great success with it, she started on a low dose and gradually increase it over a month. She has been on it for 6 months and will probably keep her on for another 6 (they have to be on it 6-12 months for it to be effective). While on the Prozac we have gone through all the basic steps of desensitisation - she developed phobias of the hair dryer, hoover and my hairbrush of all things!!

Sorry for the ramble , just wanted you to know that there are other options out there, some people think it's hilarious that I have a dog on prozac but I really believe it's worked wonders for her!

I get the vet to write a prescription for me and I get it from the chemist for about £6 a bottle instead of £20 odd from NVS!!

Give me a shout if you have any questions.

Re: Is it really justified?

Lynne Vickers — Thu, 03 May 2012 14:57:21 GMT

Hi Emma

I really feel for you on this one I agree with what others have said in regards to the squirrel I have a JRT and Staffie x and they are always after the squirrels and if they could catch up with them I have no doubt they would do the deed....

On the anxiety note my staffie x Georgie came to us from a rescue and we found she has obviously had a really stressful life before coming to us. Up until recently she was such a nervous little thing, perfect with people and other dogs and our other pets and doesn't have any agression at all but she suffers from a fear of loudness and also separation from us....my other halfs voice in particular would make her shake, but also if we call out to each other and the noise of the vacuum, hairdryer etc. Sometimes she would just sit at the end of the garden and shake and refuse to come in for anyone but me. She does also pee or poop overnight if she is left downstairs.

I tried a whole host of desensitising methods, zylkene tabs and Kalm Aid and DAP diffuser with no joy. However I recently tried the DAP collar Adaptil and it took about 3 weeks but she really is quite a different dog now, much more relaxed, comes in without any problem. She still hates the vacuum cleaner and pretty much anything else that lives in the same cupboard as it....ironing board and sweeping brush! But the hairdryer is no longer a threat to her. We alternate between taking her up overnight to sleep when she is always clean and then sometimes we leave her downstairs she will usually do one or the other toilet but I put down a puppy pad and she always does it on this, so something I can live with (buy very cheap from home bargains). I change the collar every 4 weeks. If you haven't tried one give it a go. Good luck let us know how you get on

Re: Is it really justified?

gobbolino — Tue, 01 May 2012 22:13:30 GMT

I ( somewhat stupidly) took on a jrt 9 months old a few years ago. My first dog. He had come in for pts due to aggression to his owner ( a young mother who had not trained/ socialised him) and so I thought 9 in my non wisdom and inexperience) that I would give him a go . I put SO MUCH effort into him for 10 months..... but he would attaack ME spontaniously and final straw was that he went for my friends mother when she put her hand out to him ( even though i'd told her not to) and i thought ....I can't trust him in a NORMAL social situation, mainly because I can not trust people to do what people do...People DO put their hands out to dogs to stroke them EVEN IF THEY SHOULDN'T AND JUST PRESUME THATS OK. So I balanced it all up... I was left with I can a) have him living in the house, never going out ( i had rabbits and so he couldn't go in the garden because of them ) he would get frustrated and end up crated a lot of the time or b) have him off lead having long field walks like I had been doing , playing with other dogs with the risk that his dominant and unpredictable side would result in him attacking someone...maybe a child which would make me feel terribley irresponsible and render me legally responsible or c) put him to sleep and realise that perhaps with SOME dogs, no matter what you try, it isn't enough because their backgrounds are TOO SCREWED UP TO UNSCREW. I chose option c). I was devestated, I still am ...I LOVED HIM and I can still see his face looking up at me on his 'good days', but thats when I have my rose tinted glasses on. Generally I know it was the right thing to do FOR HIM and OR ME. My husband loved him too but felt the same. Sometimes we have to weigh things up and be brave. NO ONE can tell you what to do....you have to go with what you KNOW is true. Sometimes that means an element of detachment but you have had him for a long time.......and it sounds like you have been AMAZING to him...perhaps its time you thought of yourself too.....

xxxxxxx Take care and good luck in whatever decision you make xxxxx

Re: Is it really justified?

Emma Purnell — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:50:54 GMT

[quote user="Selena (Hypnorm) Carnell VN"]In your last post you don't make him sound so bad? So which is he really like? You said you can leave him but then say that he is ok after 30 mins. Bit confusing. I presume you have tried DAP, thundershirts? Good luck, not something I could cope with.

[/quote]

This is the problem, he is both.

He toilets and stresses, vocalises etc every time he is left, but will settle after 30 mins. This is why it is so very hard to decide what is right.

He has his DAP collar on as well as his thundershirt and has Skullcap and Valerian also.

Re: Is it really justified?

Selena Carnell — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:42:17 GMT

In your last post you don't make him sound so bad? So which is he really like? You said you can leave him but then say that he is ok after 30 mins. Bit confusing. I presume you have tried DAP, thundershirts? Good luck, not something I could cope with.

Re: Is it really justified?

roughcut — Tue, 24 Apr 2012 00:13:56 GMT

If I was in your situation I think I would probably keep trying, like you are. I would deal with each behaviour issue one at a time, the all take ages to deal with but if you can get one sorted out it may give you a sense of success and light t the end of the tunnel. I hope that you succeed with him, he sounds like a sweet boy. I realise you haven't got to the euth point quickly or easily, but I just put myself in your shoes for this one, so, as I said, i would keep going. Lots of luck.

Re: Is it really justified?

Emma Purnell — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:35:04 GMT

I agree completely with the wildlife comment. It was a squirrel. He is a Jack Russell. The fault is entirely on my partner for leaving the door open which, hard as it is, I have to see it as what it was, a simple mistake with heartbreaking consequences. Its not Jacks fault at all.

What is so difficult is that you all can't see him and how he is. We don't take him for walks - THAT makes him anxious and stressed and he is happy, fit and very healthy without, his weight is ideal and muscle mass is perfect. He is also happy and stimulated. When he is left, I have filmed him. He stresses and gets wound up for 15-30 minutes, then tucks himself into his bed and sleeps until disturbed. Is this really grounds to say he has an awful quality of life? I am not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here, I genuinely dont think I know.

I love my boy, am revisiting the array of methods we have tried before at the moment but if anyone has used anything with any positive effects in these cases please do let me know, and again, thank you all for your support - there is this and much more currently going on in my home and family life and I appreciate the support you all offer on here. xxx

Re: Is it really justified?

Louise B — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:23:15 GMT

Just my thoughts but...

I personally wouldn't euthanase him for killing your wildlife rescues. He is a JRT - any self-respecting JRT would do exactly the same - they are bred to hunt with tenacity and anyone leaving a door open and allowing the JRT unsupervised access to wildlife must expect that there is a high risk of the wildlife being killed. I am sure you know that so I would chalk your partner leaving the door open to a regretful error of judgement or a simple mistake and not add that to the list of problems that your dog presents. Hell - I have had some real hunters in the past and present and learnt the hard way too!

However,

The fact that your dog appears to be chronically anxious, stressed and fearful is another matter and one that does mean that euthanasia may possibly me in the welfare interests of your dog. However, there may be other options. I am not going to get into a discussion with you online over this as barely use vetnurse now and don't have time but if you want to talk further I can put you in contact with people that may be able to support you in looking at other solutions. I'll PM you via facebook.

Re: Is it really justified?

F1chick — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:17:28 GMT

I'm so sad for you. No matter what anyone says, it's always going to be your decision, which sucks. :(

As others have said, you have given him a far better life than he would have had if you hadn't rescued him and you have really tired with him. I suppose you could argue that when you leave him his QOL isn't good as he gets so destressed.

I don't know. I really don't. I can totally see both sides of the argument and I think whatever the decision, you have to be settled in your mind that you are doing the right thing. I was at a bereavement CPD yesterday and they often do pre-euth counselling. She's not a Veterinary qualified, but perhaps speaking to someone outwith might help? She's lovely. http://www.livingwithpetbereavement.com/

You know you have all our support, no matter what you decide. xxx

Re: Is it really justified?

Selena Carnell — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:06:27 GMT

Question is can you cope with this for another potentially 10 yrs, you can't leave him, he is destructive, aggressive with other animals. It's one hell of a bind. What animal did he attack? I must admit I couldn't cope with that and I don't think it's fair to expect your oh to deal with it, it's alot of strain, doesn't sound like he has a great quality of life really with all the anxiety. Not an easy descision to make, but I think I would have to seriously consider PTS.

Re: Is it really justified?

Emma Purnell — Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:12:55 GMT

Thank you all, I really aprreciate it.

My partner has seen how much the last 24 or so hours have broken me and said he won't force me to do this or make me choose, so I have some more time to just keep trying with him.

I love my boy and couldn't face putting him down when his quality of life is still so good, it goes against all we do.

Fingers crossed - and thank you xxx

Re: Is it really justified?

Dippy — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:14:05 GMT

Have sent you a long (sorry, very long!) message via fb. x

Re: Is it really justified?

Emma Purnell — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:36:53 GMT

Thank you all.

Lots of soul searching and crying to do yet.

Re: Is it really justified?

Celine — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:18:26 GMT

Oh Emma you poor thing. You've asked the question "is euthanasia justified?" I think on the basis of all the facts you've given, then yes, it is.

The question we can't answer would be; can you do it? It sounds like you love this little guy very much, so it would be very hard to put him to sleep, and i hope you won't mind me putting this with my usual lack of tact, but at the end of the day, he won't know he has gone to sleep forever. He will just stop being so worried and scared all the time, and go to sleep.

That one is the question only you can answer, and its a decision you shouldnt rush yourself to make - I'm sure you're worried how you will live with having made that decision, but you mustn't feel guilty about it. Easier said than done I know. Best of luck xx

Re: Is it really justified?

Donna France — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:06:46 GMT

What a sad situation, I really feel for you, I helped one of my friends with a very similar situation, a JRT that was aggressive with other dogs and had seperation anxiety. we tried castration, behavioural advice, zylkene and similar but nothing worked. It got to the point were the family were scared to walk him, and the whole reason they got him was as a family pet and their son would be walking him, which wasnt an option. They had him since a pup but he just wasnt 'tuned in' correctly and was such an unhappy dog.

I broached the idea of PTS and my friend actually found it a relief that I suggested it, they decided he wasnt happy, they wernt happy and couldnt give him the life he desired, so they decided to have him PTS. I do think it was the right decision, however difficult, the wee man will be happy and running free now.

This doesnt really help with your decision but thought I would share my experience.

I think you have done ALL you possibly can, you know your little man best and Im sure you will make the right decision

big hugs

Donna x

Re: Is it really justified?

Emma Purnell — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:02:13 GMT

The problem is that it isn't all the time, he is fast alseep as happy as anything at the moment and anytime there are people with him he is the happiest little dog you could imagine. If he was like it around us it would make it easier, make the decision better. Everyone loves him and noone can believe we are thinking of doing it and, honestly, its killing me thinking about doing it. I don't know whats more selfish, putting him down to make our life easier, or keeping him going.

Thank you both for replying x

Re: Is it really justified?

Julie-Anne Wilson — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:38:42 GMT

I sort of agree with Thorn on this one. It's a horrible decision to make but think about your dog's QoL if he's scared and nervous all the time. It can't be a happy life for him.

It sounds like you've tried everything you can and you've done your best but I think you really have to think about him in the long term.

Re: Is it really justified?

Thorn — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:22:24 GMT

Thats terrible Emma. You are in a horrible situation and whatever choice you make is going to have to be the best one for your whole household. I think your partner has a point though. You have rescued this dog. Youve given him the best care you can. Youve tried with him where others would have given up and youve genuinely tried every avenue possible to make him better-it hasnt worked. If your boys problem was a medical one, say-a medical problem that has been going on for 5 years+, is affecting both his and your quality of life and is seemingly incurable- it would be a fair shout to suggest euthanasia and with your dog the only difference is that his problem is psycological. It cant be nice for him to be in terror constantly and you have given him as good a life as possible. Sorry, wish I could say something of more use :(