Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

bongo — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 11:56:51 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="sazzle RVN"]Those breeders not giving samples of their dogs blood was a perfect example of what is wrong with dog breeding, pure ignorance to the ticking time bomb. In the type of practice that I work in I see far to much BOAS surgery having to be performed because of the way in which the poor dogs were bred.

[/quote]

Just being a cynic here, but as long as no blood test is done, no proof exists, and so nothing needs to change. Breeders aren't fools - you can't be stupid and survive in the breeder/ dog show world...

[/quote]

kinda the point i was making, ignorance and selfishness!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Siobhan Steven — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 04:07:40 GMT

SUZ85

[quote user="suz85"]I know personally that this programme lies and makes things up to get ratings, the last programme told a blatant lie about my breed, claiming the ridge is a form of spina bifida (completely untrue) [/quote]

If you watch the programme at 18;20 you will see there is no such claim, they actually describe the potential of the RR having a 'Dermoid Sinus', not 'a form of spina bifida'. This is a FACT, RR can have this affliction, I have been in surgery to remove these, and actually have photographs of them.

The RR breeder who defended her practice of culling so her puppies 'won't end up in the hands of the dog fighting people' is using a rather lame line of argument when it is more likely these dogs would end up in good homes. It is these types of ignorant people who the producer is focusing on. There is ignorance everywhere...your butcher is a good example, unfortunately it is for the more intelligent and knowledgeable to enlighten such people and hope that they can break through what appears to be the usual initial reaction of most human beings...defense and get them to understand what is right.

I agree with the other posters, this programme was made to bring to the publics' attention the damage being done by breeders who are breeding for exaggerated cosmetic attributes, many of which are at the cost of the dogs quality of life...or life itself in the case of culling. We all know there are many other issues that should be covered regarding animal welfare, and I would put money on it there will be production concentrating on puppy farms at a later date.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:50:08 GMT

[quote user="sazzle RVN"]Those breeders not giving samples of their dogs blood was a perfect example of what is wrong with dog breeding, pure ignorance to the ticking time bomb. In the type of practice that I work in I see far to much BOAS surgery having to be performed because of the way in which the poor dogs were bred.

[/quote]

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

bongo — Fri, 02 Mar 2012 21:17:03 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]That was very obviously his personal opinion, which he is entitled to. I especially liked his comment about polishing a turd though... [/quote]

I too loved this bit.

I didnt really feel that that much had happened since the last programme, yes the KC have made changes but it doesnt look to me that the changes have been practised all that much. The boxer story almost had me in tears. I cant beleive that people who 'love' boxers would not want to do all they could to eradicate JKD and those breeders not giving samples of their dogs blood was a perfect example of what is wrong with dog breeding, pure ignorance to the ticking time bomb. In the type of practice that I work in I see far to much BOAS surgery having to be performed because of the way in which the poor dogs were bred.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:08:12 GMT

However, I do wish to defend as well as I know a lot of breeders do geniunely care and do try for their pups and kittens as well. Unfortunately, that's the media for you. They make it like that it is everyone that does what the programme features. Just like the BBC did with the Panorama programme featuring Medivet. They made it look like everyone was tarred with the same brush and it's just a few bad apples. There is a few bad apples everywhere, it doesn't mean everyone is bad. The Media is cruel in that way but it is good to demonstrate the bad side of things as well so people are aware and can be educated. Hopefully this can mean positive changes.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:04:48 GMT

^ I second the above person. The Kennel Club are there to regulate but they don't do this well. The breeding world are full of quite a lot of ignorant people, who lie so they can sell their pups. I know there is a lot there are geniune and do care for the pups they breed, but quite a lot as featured in the programme are ignorant and put a perfectly healthy pup down cos the hair is the wrong way! We had a labrador pup brought in when he was a week old, and he had his ear bitten off by his mother and the breeder didn't want him anymore as they wouldn't be able to sell him and wanted him put down. Luckily my colleague took him home and he is a lovely happy beautiful boy. Absolutely disgusting.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Ju_xx — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 11:19:55 GMT

[quote user="suz85"]

[/quote] I don't think this is what they are trying to say at all. I have read the replies to mean that the worst thing about the breeders on the programme is that the kennel club 'regulates' what they do and aren't necessarily doing it well at all. The puppy farms etc are a whole different issue on its own. At the end of the programme it did mention that puppy farming needs to be addressed too. It was just how ignorant the breeders were about changing for the better of the breed attract has infuriated me and a lot of others.[

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Dippy — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 11:17:16 GMT

Interesting timing - ten days before Crufts.....

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

suz85 — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 07:33:48 GMT

I cant believe you think puppy farmers and backyard breeders will breed healthier stock, a lot of labradoodles we see have very bad hips, and the "breeders" spout such nonsense as the hybrid vigour means they wont suffer the same problems as the parents. Rubbish! We have had to refer several of ours away to orthopods to help they are so bad, and almost every one has chronically bad ears. With reference to the moulting, I was making the point that, people buy these dogs as anti casting, and we have had several cases in work where a pup has been bought as a child has an allergy and then weeks later they cant keep the puppy as it casts everywhere, leaving them heartbroken, and the breeder refuses to have the pup back.

I agree with the hip scoring, but I think it should be made compulsive for certain breeds, eg labs/gsds, and the public need to be educated as to what the hips actually mean. In places like sweded, the kennel club has made health testing mandatory and will only register pups from parents health tested and with good results, meaning the public can buy with confidence. My boys bit of paper from the KC shows that all dogs in his line are hip and elbow scored, it shows he has had no inbreeding, and that his dam is from a dutch bitch and his dad from a swedish bitch, plenty of fresh blood there. It does gives me confidence, that I know exactly what has went into his make up and I know a lot of the people who have owned his relatives so for me, there is a guarantee which comes with. I also have life long support from his breeder, if for whatever reason, regardless of age, I cannot keep him, she will have him back, she'd rather that than I sell him on and she loses track, she likes to know the people who have her dogs, for her assurance.

I think the should show the good breeders along with the bad, it is very one sided and makes joe public think all breeders are bad, pushing them into the hands of puppy farmers who will come away with crap such as "these are healthy, they arent of show stock" and people will buy the puppies and I'm sure we are all familiar with heart breaking stories of the intesive breeding that goes on at these places, I certainly do not want them to become more popular. Why doesnt the programme show the bad breeders, then interview and name a number who do health test and who are passionate about the future of their breed. With the ridgebacks, why not speak to a number of breeders who could say " we never pts ridgeless, we sell them a bit cheaper and ask for them to be neutered, but they live happy healthy lives" No, and no we have been forever branded the breed that pts healthy pups, when this is totally far from the truth.

I know personally that this programme lies and makes things up to get ratings, the last programme told a blatant lie about my breed, claiming the ridge is a form of spina bifida (completely untrue) and myself and others were verbally abused many times in the weeks after the show, including my own butcher refusing to serve me and shouting at me in front of a full shop, lovely behaviour to a young girl of 24 dont you agree. Several months after the programme, the bbc apologised and said actually it wasnt, sorry. This was never broadcast anywhere and unless you looked at the breed club page, you would never know they had. So I take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt. Yes, a lot of breeds and their problems are shocking, but I know how they twist things and how they make people sound by clever editing. All I ask is for a fair balanced programme. They take one example of the breed which is too far gone in the standard and paint the picture they are all like that, what if they arent, what if they are the exception and others are trying to make the breed healthier? We will never know. I'd love to see bulldogs and pugs with more defined muzzles, but who knows, maybe there are a number of breeders trying to achieve this, but watching that programme paints every single one of them with the same brush and I find awful

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Charli Heard — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:59:54 GMT

[quote user="suz85"]

There is not thousands of pounds to be made in showing, trust me! ... most decent breeders are closr to cutting it fine

[/quote]

This is part of the issue though, if all breeders were doing all the things that you mentioned then they wouldn't be making much (if any) money. The problem is that breeders aren't all health testing their puppies or taking preventative measures so they have plenty of money to spare. Unfortunately people can make money from breeding dogs because they don't care about the bigger picture or choose not to look.

I for one am hoping to see a vast improvement in breed health within my lifetime and will do my best to support that change in any way that I can, educating as many people as I can along the way!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:58:10 GMT

[quote user="suz85"]And if done right, most breeders I know do not make a lot of money from litters[/quote]

Exactly - a good breeder won't make a fortune. But we're not talking about good breeders are we? We're talking about a CKCS breeder who knows her dog has syringomyelia and has allowed him to be stud dog to forty-odd litters. Very lucrative and completely sodding moronic.

[quote user="suz85"]Sounds to me like you are defending backyard breeders?[/quote]

Not really, although they are likely to be genetically superior to a lot of show animals. Labradoodles will probably be pretty healthy really. But my point is that those dogs won't be accompanied by a nice piece of paper with a big fancy crest, from the kennel club, which most people think is a certificate of regulation and quality.

[quote user="suz85"]neither parent hip scored[/quote]

Since when do pedigree dogs have to be hip scored? I even know of breeders whose dogs have lousy scores who sell the pups as 'hip scored parents' The unsuspecting new owner dosn't realise that that information is useless without knowing the actual numbers....!!!!!

[quote user="suz85"]Genetics dictate that if the pups take after lab coat, they will moult like hell.[/quote]

If someone buys a dog which then moults a lot more than they planned, they'll cope. Beats the hell out of buying a dog that can't breathe, lives in agony or dies young of renal or heart failure. No? Especially seeing as that dog came with a fancy certificate and a family tree going back 10 generations.....

[quote user="suz85"]The programme should do a follow up which shows the healthy side of dog breeding, the breeders who health test and for who, their dogs are their life and they put in many years of research and knowledge into their breed.[/quote]

Why? They are doing what is expected of all breeders. They should be the norm, and not worthy of any recognition.

[quote user="suz85"]And yes, I find the Ridgeback breeder who culls despicable, but I do not know of anyone who would do this and yes I know of ridgeless pups, so it isnt being done on the sly, its shocking, but its the same across the breeds, white boxers and shepherds etc. It certainly isnt unique to RR's.[/quote]

Maybe it isn't unique, but they probably just didn't get any TV footage of other breeders admitting to culling their puppies. Just because it happens in other breeds doesn't make it any easier to stomach in a RR. They were making the point that some breeders see pedigree dogs are being useless unless they are of 'show standard' - regardless of health. That is valid for all breeds.

[quote user="suz85"]Mark Evans said he found dog shows line ups of mutant freaks, I find this quite offensive.[/quote]

That was very obviously his personal opinion, which he is entitled to. I especially liked his comment about polishing a turd though...

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

suz85 — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:40:08 GMT

Mark Evans said he found dog shows line ups of mutant freaks, I find this quite offensive.

I am not rushing to defend anybody, but simply making the point that the programme is very one sided and very heavily biased, I dislike this in any topic, much prefer a balanced point of view.

There is not thousands of pounds to be made in showing, trust me! You pay to enter, and if you win, you get a rosette and a bit of card, dont know of anywhere offering prize money, actually a very expensive hobby! And if done right, most breeders I know do not make a lot of money from litters, after traveling up and down country entering shows at £25 a time, doing the health tests, driving to stud dog, getting bitch and puppies wormed and health checked, having puppies on good quality food and having 1st vaccinations done, most decent breeders are closr to cutting it fine, especially when most of the breed to keep a puppy, so if only a litter of 4 born, hardly a lucrative business!

Sounds to me like you are defending backyard breeders? They make more money than show breeders I bet. We all know of people selling labradoodles at £800, neither parent hip scored, and passing them off to unsuspecting families as anti allergy dogs, when this is a load of rubbish! Genetics dictate that if the pups take after lab coat, they will moult like hell.

The programme should do a follow up which shows the healthy side of dog breeding, the breeders who health test and for who, their dogs are their life and they put in many years of research and knowledge into their breed.

And yes, I find the Ridgeback breeder who culls despicable, but I do not know of anyone who would do this and yes I know of ridgeless pups, so it isnt being done on the sly, its shocking, but its the same across the breeds, white boxers and shepherds etc. It certainly isnt unique to RR's.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Rachel Jayne — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:34:53 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

And as far as ridgebacks are concerned - that breeder saw nothing wrong with euthanasing a healthy puppy just because its fur doesn't stick up the right way. She actually had the gall to criticise 'young vets' for refusing to carry out her twisted wishes. Absolutely shocking.

[/quote]

Here-Here Disgusting woman.....

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:21:53 GMT

[quote user="suz85"] I also dont think that every show dog is a mutant freak[/quote]

hmm - I don't remember them saying that...

[quote user="suz85"]Yes many of the breeds shown are at risk, but to be honest, where I work, "backyard breeders" do a lot more damage than show breeders, no health testing, mate with closest dog regardless of health tests, all because the puppies are pets only.... [/quote]

but the point is that 'backyard breeders' are not regulated and aren't making thousands of pounds from showing and then selling genetically buggered puppies.

I don't get it. You sound like a very sensible owner and dog shower, and yet you rush to defend the very people who make breeders look bad. The facts are not in question - dogs are being bred which have a lifetime of suffering. Noone is saying that it is every breeder or every dog. But until the kennel club and the good breeders decide to stop putting up the defensive barriers and instead do the right thing and help expose and fix the problem, then it can't get better.

How can you have watched that program and not condemn those breeders? And as far as ridgebacks are concerned - that breeder saw nothing wrong with euthanasing a healthy puppy just because its fur doesn't stick up the right way. She actually had the gall to criticise 'young vets' for refusing to carry out her twisted wishes. Absolutely shocking.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Rachel Jayne — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:43:49 GMT

Ditto Cat Breeds...

Isn't it Germany where they have banned breeding from Persian parents with a jaw line under a certain angle?

Still happens here tho, poor kitties :(

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:39:36 GMT

yes but dont forget a lot of these breeders are the ones that moan like hell at their vet bills when it becomes our job to try and sort out the mess that they have bred - makes me so angry. I think they should do a similar expose on some of the cat breeds too

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Rachel Jayne — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:39:10 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

The boxer breeder I have to say annoyed me a lot - such close breeding has caused so many problems.

[/quote]

Yeah... even with the blatant evidence that a dog from her line had caused the problems..

If you've got nothing to hide, if your line is pure...offer the blood for DNA testing....!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

suz85 — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:37:38 GMT

Have to say I found it all very one sided and obviously designed to annoy. No mention of the fact that they got their facts blatenly wrong in the last episode regarding Ridgebacks, which led to me being verbally abused several times in the street for owning one. I also dont think that every show dog is a mutant freak, my dog comes hillwalking with me most weekends and is incredibly fit and is occasionally shown, more for the social aspect than anything else, in his four years, he has been into my work several times for cut pads, nothing else. He is incredibly healthy. Yes many of the breeds shown are at risk, but to be honest, where I work, "backyard breeders" do a lot more damage than show breeders, no health testing, mate with closest dog regardless of health tests, all because the puppies are pets only....

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Rachel Jayne — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:36:21 GMT

You'd think Dalmatian owners/breeders would jump at the chance to breed-out Urate Stones..... but no.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:34:27 GMT

The boxer breeder I have to say annoyed me a lot - such close breeding has caused so many problems.

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Ju_xx — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:29:59 GMT

The bit that infuriated me the most was how they shut out that Dalmatian breeder from the breed club. She actually cared and wanted to make a difference like the woman with the CFCs. The breed clubs should be ashamed of themselves!!!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Kim Buckley — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:26:53 GMT

It was the stud cavvy who they were breeding regardless of the fact it had syringomyelia! Complete idiots!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:25:09 GMT

[quote user="Rachel Jayne RVN C-SQP MBVNA"]

Although saying that, as I've just said on my twitter, unfortunately, it's run by the wealthy a.k.a. Tories, so no-one stands a chance really :(

[/quote]

I am sorry but I dont feel somebodys political affiliation/affliction really enters into it

I think one of the best things that was only partly brought about by the original programme was that bitches requiring multiple caesarians because breeders continue to breed from them knowing full well they can never give birth naturally - well at least they are limited to the number of caesars they can have now before the KC says they cannot register their offspring. Have to say from what I have just seen there hasnt been a lot done, and there is still an awful lot to do

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Rachel Jayne — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:23:57 GMT

The reports about CKCS & Dalmatians were crazy!

Re: Pedigree dogs exposed revisited

Kim Buckley — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:21:06 GMT

I watched it and all I can say is whilst a large amount of influential breeders have no desire to improve dog health, a lot of pedigree dogs are screwed! Hey but what does it matter as long as they are winning in the show ring *rolls eyes*