Where will the money come from?

Re: Where will the money come from?

molladog — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:41:17 GMT

[quote user="Gemma Burden RVN"]

[quote user="Dippy"]

It always amazes me how many people (and by people, I mean the general public, comments from friends etc) still think that vets are all loaded. They seem to rank them up there with hospital consultants in terms of what they think they earn!

[/quote]

The same seems to be true about their opinion of nurses wages. I had to go back into work one evening to see to an inpatient and a client had just pulled into the carpark to put an insurance form through the letter box. When I got out of my car he took one look at it and said "My God he (meaning my boss) is paying you too much)". The way he said it you would have thought that I had just turned up in a Rolls, not the Mini I saved for years to buy. Its annoying as the public have no problem with NHS staff being paid more, but because they are directly contributing to our wages with the fees we charge they seem to resent us making a living.

[/quote] If I had a pound for everyone who has said to me,' Oh you are a vet nurse, you must be rolling in it the prices they charge' I would be a millionaire !! lol

Re: Where will the money come from?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:25:50 GMT

Well, as long as people are willing to work in a job for low pay, the employers will continue to offer said low pay. :( I agree, moving around does help sometimes.

Re: Where will the money come from?

Angiy Michael — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:45:46 GMT

Interestingly I have found that moving around quite a bit has actually improved my pay..My first few practices i stayed with for some time but then I had a period where I moved practices and moved around the country quite a bit..I found that people offered me more money than previously and I can only assume this is due to a perception that I had more valuable experience from working in a variety of settings ( I'm not saying that I have more than other people..just that this seemed to be the perception of prospective employers ). I only work part time now and do a bit of locuming ..but when full time for the last few years I was always on 18-19k + and my current hourly rate is very respectable XX

Re: Where will the money come from?

Katy — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:29:15 GMT

Having worked as a Nursing assistant for a year, and as a student pharmacy technician for 2 years, and as a qualified tech for 4 months, I can see from a veterinary and NHS point of view.

As a qualified band 4 tech I start off on £18,500 a year. We get an increment every 12 months if we meet certain criteria and don't breach the sickness policy. If we breach that, no pay increase for us.

After being qualified for 2 years, I can then do a course to become an accuracy checking technician (basically check that a prescription has been dispensed correctly before it is given to the patient), again in certain hospitals this means I can become a band 5, so a pay increase upto £21k.

I have an NVQ level 3, and a BTEC National Certificate in Pharmacy Services which I trained for 2 years to get.

If I was working in a local chemist, corporate or not, I would be on the same or slightly lower salary than working in a hospital.

One of the reasons I moved from vet nursing into pharmacy was that I was put off by the lack of career progression.

You should see the amount of medicines that get wasted in a hospital or in the local community (there is an article on the BBC website at the moment about medicines wastage).

I don't know what the answer is to the big wage debate, but when you see companies like Halifax ceasing their pet insurance business due to the increased cost of vet fees, how much more can vet fees increase?

Saying that, there is such a variation in what practices charge for consultations, surgical procedures, and the mark up on drugs, maybe there are a few things that need to be looked at.

But to pay a RVN £6 an hour is insulting!!!

Re: Where will the money come from?

Fuzzyduck — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:01:14 GMT

Agree Dippy, 2 years ago when i was changing jobs i went for 6 interviews, the lowest pay per hour was £6.90! The others were around the £8, £8.20 mark, the highest was £9 and £11 at weekends, that was the job i accepted. I was offered all 6.

If there are practices who can offer £9 then why are there practices who still think its ok to offer £6 or £7 thats barely above minimum wage!!!

I have actually found the opposite to what you said Gillian, staying in 1 practice wages stay the same from the moment you start , there is rarely a yearly pay review, which i would welcome. I have found changing jobs i have been able to ask for a higher wage as a result.

Re: Where will the money come from?

Dippy — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:44:44 GMT

I went for one interview (albeit a couple of years ago) where they offered me £6.20 an hour and there was no negotiation - that would also have included regular evening and weekend checks for no extra money. For an RVN with 23yrs experience at the time (including other animal related fields, the skills from which would all have been of use to them) I felt I had completely wasted my (and their) time but I guess that's the problem when the ads so often say "dependent on experience". At least a salary shown gives you some idea of whether it's worth taking time off work/juggling shifts to spend an hour doing an interview.

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:28:42 GMT

[quote user="Steph Worsley"]I agree dippy I was on £8/hour as head nurse at one practice[/quote]

That does seem low.

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:28:05 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]there are still many practices in the North West who don't even come close to that as an hourly rate![/quote]

maybe not as a starting salary...but surely an RVN with some experience and who has been with the practice a few years would be getting there...???

I do find this habit of nurses moving around a lot maybe doesn't help their salary progression - but maybe that is because some practices don't give annual pay rises, which they should. But as Sal has said, a practice will only pay you what you are worth. Sometimes some longevity in a job is needed to show them what you bring to the practice...

Re: Where will the money come from?

Steph Worsley — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:25:38 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

As far as working hours - I agree completely. A job should be just that - a job. But that has also meant I've had recruiting problems as my nurses work 35 - 39 hours a week, which means their yearly salary can be poor compared to someone who is used to working 45 hours a week (which as you will know, isn't unusual). At a basic salary of £7.00 an hour (ie unqualified staff) that still means a difference of up to £3,500 a year. For someone on £9.00 that rises to £4,600 a year. It is hard to compete when some people want to be paid the same to work less hours...

[/quote]

That's a fair point as working hours per week do vary greatly but I would have been quite happy with £9 per hour - sadly, from my personal experience, there are still many practices in the North West who don't even come close to that as an hourly rate!

[/quote]

I agree dippy I was on £8/hour as head nurse at one practice

Re: Where will the money come from?

Dippy — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:17:53 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[/quote]

Re: Where will the money come from?

Steph Worsley — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:32:13 GMT

I completely agree with you Gillian. I have been one in the past to stand up for practice owners when some people have been demanding this and that. I have never been completely privy to a practices finances but I have been involved in buying processes of various pieces of equipment etc and have seen how hard some practice owners work for very little in return

Yes the whole veterinary profession is very poorly paid and that is because people do not understand how much it costs to run a practice, so therefore are not willing to pay more for their pets. I don't think this has been helped with the online pharmacies who can charge less as they have fewer overheads

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:21:38 GMT

Thanks Sal.

I really don't want to start an argument or cause friction, it was a genuine question. I understand that without a clear understanding of an individual practice's economics noone can be in possession of all the facts but I do get frustrated with this idea that nurses want to be paid more and yet there is, at the same time, a clear understanding that there isn't a great deal of money in the veterinary pot. The fact that the only answer I have received was the one poster who said the boss should pay for it tells me that maybe there was a lack of awareness of who would be able to pay for their rise..??? Maybe some food for thought??

Maybe the fault lies with the bosses - who for too long have kept practice finances a mystery to their own staff!

Re: Where will the money come from?

Paulette — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:04:04 GMT

Totally agree Vicky. Work-life balance is so important for everyone. To a certain extent the profession/nature of work you choose denotes whether you are expected to stay late if needed but even eg an emergency Doctor needs to finish his/her shift within a reasonable time of when it was supposed to end and have some days off and be able to do something with those days off not just sleep/shop/wash and then go back to work! I am obviously being extreme but what I'm saying is everyone has a life and I'm assuming everyone wants to live it!

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gemma Burden RVN — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:52:04 GMT

You hit the nail on the head Angly. My previous boss had had a practice in Hong Kong for 10 years before moving back over here, and he said it was much easier to charge fees that represented the level of training the vets etc had undertaken when he was there as the people there were used to paying for their own health care. They knew exactly what to expect and never questioned the amount they were expected to pay. Simularly, when I had to first start seeing a chiropractor she appologised for the price at the end of the first session as it was more than subsequent sessions. My appointment lasted an hour and cost £40 - I would have expected to pay far more for the amount of time she spent with me. I think until the public know how much their own treatment really cost then vets are not going to be able to charge the kind of prices that they prehaps should be, and the money is not going to be there to raise salaries.

Re: Where will the money come from?

Vicky RVN — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:18:10 GMT

I think all you have said it very true Angiy. If people actually had to pay for their health care like other countries do, they would appreciate the costs of medical care and would maybe accept higher vet bills (a lot still wouldn't though i'm sure, like you say, it depends on peoples financial worth of their pet). I'm lucky in that i've never been paid a toally awful wage...but I do feel I have worked too many hours for the pay I was given. Even if the wage had been higher I still wouldn't have liked the hours, prefer to work to live not live to work, as much as I love the job!

Re: Where will the money come from?

Angiy Michael — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:09:30 GMT

Hello ! I can assure you the public do object to NHS staff wages ..having now been on both sides of the fence

Anyhoo I do support VN's having better pay rates..and I am also more than aware that VS pay is far lower than it should be in terms of the amount of academic training and hours that people have to put in to qualify in the first place. The biggest issue for both VS and VN's is that we work predominately in small private businesses who have to make decisions on pay rates based around their individual overheads and existing market forces. The only way to solve the problem on a wider scale would be to charge what we actually should in relative terms..ie my private dentist charges £75 for a new client consult and weighing up the costs of dental training CPD and business overheads I accept that this is what I would expect to pay..as a VS trains for 5-6 years and has to be both medical and surgical expert in several species then really in a more relative world I would expect to pay much the same as I pay this dentist..however, the general public would just not be prepared to pay this..I think exlporing why this is could take several more threads ! Value systems, relative worth of animals in people's eyes financially etc.,

One of the biggest issues in the UK is that people do not pay for health care..so they have nothing to relate charges to ..people complain about paying a £7.50 prescription charge for a drug that would have cost them £100.

On the up side vet nurse pay has improved a lot since I started out in 1998..although sadly I think one of the biggest impacts was the introduction of the minimum wage in 1999. When I started in practice I was paid a flat rate of £80/week and had to work overnights and full weekends on "duty" where I couldn't leave the building for 48 hour stretches at a time..used to work out as 70-90 hour week. So things have improved..but I think a lot of bitterness stems from people having experiences like this..there is no way you can tell me that the bosses at the practice i just mentioned wouldn't be doing exactly the same thing now if the minimum wage hadnt come in and the EU Working Time Directive appear ..

For me the biggest issues with Vet Nursing when I was working full time was not only the poor pay but also the lack of progression...you ultimately hit a point where there is no scope for you to progress any further ..and as you get older you watch your friends getting on financially and career wise with more time off than you and the "job satisfaction" elements you do get out of it just don't cut it enough..just my opinion ..but that's how it made me feel..much prefer it now it's just part -time for me XX

Re: Where will the money come from?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:47:04 GMT

Gillian I am pleased you started this thread - I agree with what you have written both on here and the other thread. Currently I work for a decent boss and I consider myself to be reasonably paid for the work I do ( maybe I have lower expectations or maybe its just that I have been around a while and understand some of the ins and outs of practice a bit more?) but I think there are too many people out there that think its as easy as going tap tap like Sooty and hey presto producing a wage rise out of the hat just like that!

Incidentally my experience has been that the corporates are the worst for wages - not the stand alone practices, but then I suppose what is raised in revenue within the practice a good proportion of that is going to fund multiple layers of management and pen pushers back at the mother ship? (just an observation)

I have said it quite a few times already - you are only worth as much as somebody is willing (or able) to pay

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:44:40 GMT

I'd have happily employed her...but couldn't match her current wage. Banks must have more money than me obviously......or at least, they used to....

Re: Where will the money come from?

Dippy — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:43:02 GMT

Didn't get the job then...?

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:51:50 GMT

I'm glad you said that - I've also found that people presume that because 'the practice' is raking it in then all the staff must also be rich. I had someone come for a receptionist job who was currently being paid over £15 an hour as a cashier in a bank (she had been working there over 10 years). She was floored when I told her that our staff wouldn't ever be on that amount - she'd assumed all positions in a vet practice would be extremely well paid. I put her straight....

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gemma Burden RVN — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:45:44 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]

[/quote]

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:45:39 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]It always amazes me how many people (and by people, I mean the general public, comments from friends etc) still think that vets are all loaded. They seem to rank them up there with hospital consultants in terms of what they think they earn![/quote]

Don't get me started

The vast majority of VS, owner or not, will never even get near a GP doctor's wage, let alone a consultant's!

Don't get me wrong - I am happy with my standard of living and consider myself very lucky - I grew up in a very low income household. I know nurses often struggle on their wages. But I just feel that if vet nurses also think that the VS is rolling it in then what chance have we got to convince the general public that vet fees are too low..... No offence, but they won't pay higher bills to ensure the nurses get paid better. They have to be convinced of the truth - which is thet vet practice is nowhere near as profitable for the vet as public opinion seems to think it is. Only when they are prepared to pay the vet properly will that improvement be able to be passed on to the rest of the practice!

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:40:16 GMT

[quote user="Fuzzyduck"]in my case i think it should come out of the bosses pocket.[/quote]

Something to think about:

-all VS owners, whether setting up from scratch, buying into a partnership or buying the business, will have gone into debt to the tune of many hundreds of thousands. Most will take 20 years + to pay off that debt. A large amount of their salary will be immediately going to pay off that debt. You are tied to that practice and paying salaries regardless of your future situation - even if you are too ill to work you have to keep running the practice and paying the wages. It is a hell of a responsibility to carry.

-as I said above, the practice outgoings often astound those who haven't had access to practice accounts. We are only a 4 FTE vet practice and our monthly staff bill is £30,000, wholesaler bill £20,000 and then you have all the utilities, insurances, VAT ( 20% of turnover) etc etc etc. Thus we need to take approx £2,000 per day just to pay the bills - it is only when you get above that level that I can pay for CPD and nurse training, new equipment gets bought, old stuff gets replaced, and any other extras. If anything else lands in the pot then that is my wage (minus 20% VAT of course...)

I do realise that not all practices are like mine (my staff tell me their wages compare well) but most practices aren't as profitable as you may think. As has been said, most practices run at a 5% - 8% profit margin. That means 92% - 95% is costs!

(None of this applies to corporate practices, of course, the financial situation I know nothing of.)

-vet nurses are now legally entitled to own/run a vet practice. Why do so few of them seem to be going for it? Afterall, the banks are usually pretty happy to lend on established/sure fire businesses and with such a massive practice income, the level of debt wouldn't then be a problem?

Re: Where will the money come from?

Dippy — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:35:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

But people often think that the owners are rolling it in while their staff are scraping by, which just won't be true in the majority of cases.

[/quote]

Re: Where will the money come from?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:26:12 GMT

[quote user="hobbits"]After all, a vet that has low productivity, a low atv etc wouldn't get a payrise either.[/quote]

Absolutely. And don't forget that an owner won't get paid anything at all if the practice has a really bad year - which happens more than you think. There have been threads and many comments on vetsurg.org where vets are in financial difficulties and are asking for advice.

I am absolutely all for improved pay for VNS. And everyone has every right to take the job that bests suits their pocket. But people often think that the owners are rolling it in while their staff are scraping by, which just won't be true in the majority of cases.