Lay staff being used as nurses

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Sal the 1st — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:48:57 GMT

[quote user="Katy"]

Oh well. I did many of those procedures listed on that lovely BVNA list when I wasn't a student nurse.

Can't say I enjoyed monitoring anaesthetic, as it is a huge responsibility even when you are being supervised by a vet.

But I did subcut and IM injections, took blood (from cephalic vein only and in dogs), monitored anaesthesia, clipped up ready for surgery. The list goes on.

And I loved every minute of it.

[/quote]

I reckon a lot of us did - I know I did, and I also believe a lot of the people laying down the law now did too - strange that it was ok for them when they were training but they dont want others to now? or maybe its just because it challenges their position in the pecking order and thats why it cannot possibly be allowed.

Just thought of something else. If laystaff are not supposed to be doing these things then who is teaching them? - are there any 'naughty' RVNs out there showing them how to do these jobs, if so I hope you are teaching them ooh when it is ok for laystaff to be doing this stuff and not during the day when they musn't

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Katy — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:22:39 GMT

Oh well. I did many of those procedures listed on that lovely BVNA list when I wasn't a student nurse.

Can't say I enjoyed monitoring anaesthetic, as it is a huge responsibility even when you are being supervised by a vet.

But I did subcut and IM injections, took blood (from cephalic vein only and in dogs), monitored anaesthesia, clipped up ready for surgery. The list goes on.

And I loved every minute of it.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Sal the 1st — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:26:13 GMT

just wondered if it was something to do with the moon? maybe laystaff have additional powers and skills at night that ebb away as the sun comes up

If laystaff are not allowed during the day when help is around how the hell are they supposed to manage this single handed at night with fewer people around. I know certain psychopath cats that I wouldnt want to give a s/c to unassisted (one of my own included).

Animals needing tx ooh are generally hospitalised because they are too sick to go home or they are emergency cases either way they are needing treatment that cannot be provided by their owners - so are we saying that laystaff are responsible enough to give meds and monitor a patients condition in these situations but when the more routine stuff comes in during the day then they are not?

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Paulette — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:13:20 GMT

[quote user="duncat"]

I thought this forum was for helping people not slagging them off for a spelling mistake or a grammer mistake. I would also like to say I have never slagged off lay people I just dont want my qualification to be for nothing.

[/quote]

me too!!! Good luckies :)

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Paulette — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:03:54 GMT

i absolutely agree. also often pain relief is i/m injections so what is meant to happen? vets do it themselves OOH or has to be QVN doing all the night shifts/going in to do anything that isn't basic/routine medication. if there's going to be rules they need to stick to them, not make loop holes just for convenience's sake. like you said during the day there are Qstaff to supervise so I think it would be better the other way round. After all says has to be robust checking system for dispensing meds so surely this should apply when actually giving the oral meds to a patient?!!!

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Sal the 1st — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:46:24 GMT

[quote user="Paulette"]

who can give medication in a veterinary practice? During normal working hours - only RVNs & enrolled student nurses are permitted to administer medication (oral, topical & parenteral routes). However, the RCVS have stated that if a lay staff member has been suitably trained, they are permitted to administer routine/basic medication orally & by subcutaneous injection during out of hours shifts.

[/quote]

Jeez - so during the day when there are qualified staff around to supervise, laystaff are not allowed to give basic medication - but out of hours when there is more chance of them being the only ones around and nobody to supervise suddenly they are allowed? This is craziness!!!

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Tanya Traill — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:46:00 GMT

Just replying to the one person not you.Thanks for backing me up. I have only recently been diagnosed and am having some trouble with passing my English tests at college that I have to re-do at college becasue my gcses are out of date so am probably a bit touchy about stupid spelling and grammer comments from one particular person on here. I thought this forum was for helping people not slagging them off for a spelling mistake or a grammer mistake. I would also like to say I have never slagged off lay people I just dont want my qualification to be for nothing.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Paulette — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:37:46 GMT

absolutely. spelling isn't the be all and end all at all (hope you didn't think it was me who made the rude comment!) i was backing you up! i spell stuff wrong (eg spey!) ! obv check yourself as much as poss but at the end of the day we are all human. good luck with your training :) and yes be proud of your qualification cos no doubt you're working bloody hard to get it! x

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Tanya Traill — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:32:25 GMT

It is actually,when the change of one letter can mean a whole different procedure .... sorry to burst your bubble :)

In response to above comment

To be perfectly honest here I was typing quickly and I dont think the word that I was spelling makes a big difference to anyone else just to one little nit picker like you. To be honest I think this thread is getting petty and I will be proud of my qualification once I get it becasue I work hard at college to get there. I will do things by the book as I,m a student veterinary nurse. I wont take any offence to you so called burstin my bubble. Just laughing at how petty some people can be on here.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Paulette — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:14:53 GMT

i know i said i wouldn't post anymore but just one more! my friend has recently emailed bvna about sch3 etc etc so thought might be useful to post the reply she got back on this thread. ps i still write 'spey' even though i know it's wrong! i just can't seem to stop cos that's how i was first taught!

Dear Sarah

Hopefully I have answered your questions below:

Could lay staff be permitted to take bloods and place I.V catheters? These procedures are considered Schedule 3 acts (by the RCVS), and so they advise that lay staff must not carry out these tasks. Only Registered & Listed VNs and enrolled student nurses are permitted to do so.

Can lay staff draw up pre meds and give injections? Lay staff may prepare premedication (specific amounts stated by the VS), but are not permitted to administer the drugs by injection (or by any other route). And this would not be classed as routine/basic medication, so could not be administered out of hours either.

Can they dispense medication? Yes - providing the prescribing Veterinary Surgeon has authorised them to do so, and that there is a robust "checking system" in place before medication is handed over to the client.

I can't find much literature as to what lay staff can do at a veterinary practice? Unfortunately there is not really a definitive list, more common sense. Nursing assistants are just that – there to assist the nursing team. They should not be administering medication, nor carrying our specialised/intensive nursing care, nor any other Schedule 3 act. There is a large loophole regarding anaesthesia - and anyone undertaking this should undergo thorough training (ie: the VN Diploma training & post-VN qualification advanced training). However, the RCVS state that anyone who has been "suitably" trained may monitor general anaesthesia. What has to be paramount when asking any member of staff to carry out a task is providing excellent animal welfare. Has that person had sufficient training, and have sufficient knowledge to be able to carry out the task safely & effectively. And also - is this a Schedule 3 act?

You should refer to your full RVN Code of Conduct (copy attached). If you require further clarification you could contact Liz Branscome or Andrea Jeffrey who are members of the RCVS VN Council (contactable via the RCVS VN Department). However, if there are any doubts at all - speak to the RCVS Legal department - they will provide you with full clarification.

Is there anything we can do to protect the title of the veterinary nurse? Sign the Government E-petition using this link http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/18700 and to ask everyone you know to sign as well, family, friends, etc.

I hope you find this information useful.

Kind Regards

Lisa

Lisa Brett | Education Manager | The British Veterinary Nursing Association Ltd

82 Greenway Business Centre, Harlow Business Park, Harlow, Essex CM19 5QE

Tel: 01279 408644 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 01279 408644 end_of_the_skype_highlighting | Fax: 01279 408645 | www.bvna.org.uk

hope this helps :)

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

staceyvn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:34:16 GMT

ps what procedures can change with one letter ?? im on a night shift, bored and am racking my brains to think of any....bad spelling aint the end of the world, you can always find out what someone means from them...ie one of our nurses spells murmur...murmor! and i use spay, some folk use spey...god can u tell how boring my night is.....

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

staceyvn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:30:40 GMT

ouch...sandra that was a bit harsh

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:57:01 GMT

[quote user="duncat"]

By the way im dyslexic so before you slag people off about grammer just to let you know I will always be rubbish at english and grammer not that its important when I can do my job.

[/quote]It is actually,when the change of one letter can mean a whole different procedure .... sorry to burst your bubble :)

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:12:03 GMT

[quote user="Katy"]So do vet nurses not dispense meds??[/quote]

Yes - as part of the team. It is not their only job.

I'm just saying that as a pharmacy tech (I assume in the human field) you have a completely different job. I am happy with the thought that protocols are in place to ensure you dispense the correct meds - afterall, we're talking about humans. It is probably not a popular comment, but it is fair enough that the rules are more stringent.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Rhian Jones — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:30:35 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

[quote user="Rhian Jones"]

I hope I can help keep it proffessional. I'm a student nurse in my last year of the degree course and my last theory block was regarding legalities, as far as I can understand only vets, Q/RVNs and SVNs(under supervision) can carry out acts under schedule 3. Does schedule 3 not include the giving of injections e.g: subcutaneous injections ? So does this mean that only Q/RVNs or SVNs are legally supposed to do this? I understand that in cases where there are no Q/RVNS they will be given by someone else as there is a shortage in nurses but is this legal?

[/quote]

I have posted an extract from the VS Act on one of the previous pages of this thread. It does not stipulate that injections are covered by Sch 3, but administering medication is, although the wording of the law in both areas leave it open for interpretation.

I think those that feel demeaned, or de-valued by the use of unqualified nurses where they would expect a QVN, should consider a number of points.

1. You have a qualification that will allow you to work across the UK and in many other countries in the world. Although unqualified staff may have years of experience and excellent references, it is not as easy to move practices, or indeed transfer their skills to another practice or country.

2. The profession is slowly changing. 12 years ago, I would estimate that around half of the adverts in Vet Times would say "Experienced/Qualified", but now you might only find the odd one or two, the majority say "Qualified or SVN" etc.

3. But also, with the insurance market becoming gradually unstable, we should consider that there just may not be the funds available for us to follow the medical profession and base our standards of care on this. Its great having the "gold standard", but can every pet owner afford that? Are we going to alienate the less well-off pet-owners and only cater for the wealthy (who will part with their money!) and maintain our standards / expect a better salary. Ultimately, its the public who pay our wages.

[/quote]

Thanks Tracy,I'll go back and have a thorough read through. I agree with you on the fact "public pay our wages" we have to ultimetly keep them happy and we also have our duty of care, so if the only way for their pets to get the treatment and the care they deserve is by someone who may not have a certificate in nursing but are still competent at giving this tx and care then go for it! ultimetly we are all caring for the animals in the work that we do. personally i would like to see the profession move forward purely for the reason that we could create a "gold standard" and hopefully be more recognised by society in what we do-and that we are not "mini vets" or "the cleaner" or "someone who wanted to be a vet but failed".

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Katy — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:02:52 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

But you have a specific job which is different to veterinary nursing. I'm sure you couldn't monitor an anaesthetic safely or prepare an animal for surgery.

You're comparing apples and pears!

[/quote]

So do vet nurses not dispense meds??

I have prepared animals for surgery and monitored anaesthetics under the supervision of a vet... ETA this was when I worked as an assistant/auxiliary. I still come on here as I would like to get back into the veterinary industry... at some point

Just wondering out of interest really.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:59:44 GMT

But you have a specific job which is different to veterinary nursing. I'm sure you couldn't monitor an anaesthetic safely or prepare an animal for surgery.

You're comparing apples and pears!

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Katy — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:53:50 GMT

Here's something to throw another cat amongst the pigeons

I am a qualified pharmacy technician. I have a BTEC and NVQ level 3 in Pharmacy Services.

I am registered with the governing body and have to complete 9 pieces of CPD every year to ensure I stay current.

What in the vet nurse qualification is there that is similar to my profession that proves that you can correctly dispense any medication that the vet prescribes? Do you have to complete dispensing logs to prove your competence? And then, does anyone (i.e. the vet) check that what you have dispensed is correct?

Do you get many medication errors in practice?

If I make a mistake, an accuracy checker will pick it up and I will correct it. However if it is a serious mistake I can go up in front of a tribunal and be stripped of my qualification, and prosecuted in some circumstances.

Just interested to see what the deal is really, and give you something to consider...

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Tracy Windler RVN — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:41:11 GMT

In my experience of 5 or 6 TPs, only one of them had a contract where the student had to pay back fees if they left within 2 years of qualifying. Funnily enough, this was the only one who over-worked and took advantage of its SVNs. One practice had a 2 qualified nurses and 2 students and liked to keep it that way, as an economy measure and to balance the work load, so expected nurses the leave once qualified. It all depends on what the practice needs, or wants from its nursing staff, I suppose.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:39:38 GMT

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot"]If they leave before that time period then they have to pay back all training fees/expenses so it can be quite a hefty sum.[/quote]

How on earth can you quantify that amount though?

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot"] I know what it costs practices to have student nurses but when you take into account the nurses side........ more often than not, minimal wages, long hours/ weekend work and out of hours/ on-calls the practices do get quite a good deal as well as the SVN.[/quote]

hmm...not all practices exploit trainee staff! But I actually think that as it was my decision to train the nurses then you live with that decision. If you then resent them for what they have cost you then you shouldn't be doing it.

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot"]I think should be given the opportunity to move on..... which if most of us are honest, then that is what we generally want to do once we have qualified.[/quote]

The quickest way to make someone want to leave is to tell them they can't.........!! I have so far trained 3 nurses and all still work for me....maybe the fact that they are free to leave whenever they wish is part of the reason they choose to stay?

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Mrs Dot Dot — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:29:31 GMT

I think more and more practices are asking for students to stay on for a certain period post qualification .... ? approx a year, give or take. If they leave before that time period then they have to pay back all training fees/expenses so it can be quite a hefty sum. I can understand practices doing this, and I know what it costs practices to have student nurses but when you take into account the nurses side........ more often than not, minimal wages, long hours/ weekend work and out of hours/ on-calls the practices do get quite a good deal as well as the SVN.

But if you have a QVN that is just staying with the practice purely so they don't have to pay fees back, and is unhappy there, then it creates an unhappy working atmosphere for everyone else, at the least, and so I think should be given the opportunity to move on..... which if most of us are honest, then that is what we generally want to do once we have qualified.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:01:17 GMT

[quote user="therainyj"]For the record, most trainee (diploma) nurses are required to sign a contract pledging 2 years post qualified work with the company who have trained them, or are made to pay their expenses back if they leave within this timeframe. [/quote]

That contract is simply between the company and the member of staff and I'd love to see where you get your statistics in order to say 'most'. I have never had a contract that ties anyone to the practice - why would you want someone working for you against their will?????

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Tracy Windler RVN — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:40:41 GMT

[quote user="Rhian Jones"]

[/quote]

I think those that feel demeaned, or de-valued by the use of unqualified nurses where they would expect a QVN, should consider a number of points.

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

StMongo — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:12:14 GMT

I work in a very small clinic. There is the doctor, myself with 4 years experience and my co worker with 18 years experience. Neither my coworker or I are "qualified." (I'm using quotes because otherwise it seems to imply that I am not capable of doing my job).

As far as I know, my doctor has never employed a vet nurse with a degree. I don't know the reasons behind this, but I have to assume that he's not the only vet who does this. I know I am lucky to be in the position I am in, but I don't think I deserve my job any less than someone with their degree. For me, I don't have it because I am not in the position financially to go to school. I wish I was. This doesn't mean that I don't do any learning on my own. I am on this forum for a reason, I learn all I can from the vet I work for, I read up, etc. I also work my ass off. Because of where I am, I have to do everything from answer the phone, book appointments, assist with surgery, xrays, clean up, handle transactions, monitor animals after surgery and stay happy after a day of getting barfed/bled/peed/pooped on and scratched up.

I never say that I am actually a vet nurse, and I respect the ones who have gone to school, but I am a little disapointed that experience doesn't seem to count or that it's assumed that others like me are employed by vets who (by virture of employing someone "unqualified") would put someone's pet in danger.

I am not stopping a nurse with a degree getting a job anymore than you are stopping me. There is another issue there. We need to stop blaming each other. We are in this together for the animals, remember?

Re: Lay staff being used as nurses

Sal the 1st — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 01:31:38 GMT

I hear what you are saying Stacey but we all do have to work together and a lot of what has been said on this thread is alienating the people we work alongside.

[quote user="staceyvn"]

simple fact is vets do vets work, rvns do their work and any support staff are there to support and outfits that are not employing at least one rvn should be pulled up....end of.

[/quote]

there are actually quite a large number of vets out there that believe qualified nurses are encroaching on their role too - so this feeling of being undermined some of you have isnt exclusive to the RVN by any means.