Castrating my boy

Re: Castrating my boy

Nicola Smith — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:43:44 GMT

Seem to have started a debate here!!!

Anyway he is confident for a whippet, as they generally aren't the most confident breed in the worls, but he loves everyone and everything except the hoover and fireworks!! I will see how things go but a thinking of waiting till around 8 months a his tackle is very small at the moment and he is still frequently sucks them back up! Anymore comments greatly receoved to help me decided for sure though!!

Re: Castrating my boy

Emma Purnell — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:54:58 GMT

[quote user="Doolally"]

Without getting tooooo involved in the politics of it all I agree with whoever mentioned the temperment bit.

I had my JRT castrated at 6months because he was my first terrier and I didn't want to have to deal with terrier attitude AND testosterone...(this was before I was a VN). He was quite a nervous dog from when he was a pup, the others would be terrorising something and he'd be playining happily on his own etc.

He is now quite a nervous dog and needs careful managment to prevent some situations affecting him ...eg he became fear aggressive with vets after I left him in for xrays for a day (again before I was a VN)...he can be fear aggressive on the lead, he won't talk to people he doesn't know etc...

I definately wish I'd waited longer with him so he could build his confidence and character a bit more

[/quote]

At the same time, I have a JRT who was castrated at around 2 years old and he suffers the same problems. Its not always about the age of castration, some seem to be naturally prone to fear related behaviours.

Re: Castrating my boy

Doolally — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:37:51 GMT

Without getting tooooo involved in the politics of it all I agree with whoever mentioned the temperment bit.

I definately wish I'd waited longer with him so he could build his confidence and character a bit more

Re: Castrating my boy

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:00:40 GMT

yes

Re: Castrating my boy

Louise B — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:02:55 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]In fact l am surprised that every one isnt in court every day as fads change and the bigger better newest and most up to date joined up thinking and studies of the modern age shows that what has been done before is totally wrong.[/quote]

Science isn't a fad and the findings of science are not a fad. Veterinary medicine advances occur due to science. Companion animal behavioural science is relatively in its infancy so it is to be expected that received opinion will change quite rapidly as a consequence. However, that is not to say that we should just ignore it.

Re: Castrating my boy

wobbliebob — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:31:48 GMT

can sympatihise with making this choice my boy is coming up to 2 years old in may and i still cant decide. He has a 0/2 hip score which is tainting my view lol

Re: Castrating my boy

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:19:13 GMT

I am not up for neutering nervous dogs, in the same way I am not up for neutering bitches who have a weak bladder.

If the bitch is widdling all over the place through either fear or excitement, the usual protocol is to wait at least until she has a season for the sphincter to tighten up.

So what difference does a few more months make in the nervous dog if we recommend above action for females.

Anyway everyone knows my thoughts on neutering, I have at present a 3 year old un neutered bitch I am not going to breed from her, and will get her neutered, but in my time, when I see fit.She is pretty much finished maturing so will probably have her done this summer.

My JRT was neutered at over a year old as she had a tendancy to piddle everywhere, so I waited till she had a couple of seasons and she is fine.

Re: Castrating my boy

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:07:33 GMT

Lousie l will give all options but l will push hard for neutering and if people want to see me in court because l told them what stood a good chance of happening and what is the reality of an animals life in uk (or wherever l happen to live) they will have to. In fact l am surprised that every one isnt in court every day as fads change and the bigger better newest and most up to date joined up thinking and studies of the modern age shows that what has been done before is totally wrong. And what was known and accepted 2 days before has been shown to be totally wrong and caused whatever.

I was shown a baby human one yesterday and made the mistake of asking if it was male female or what. apparently as it was in blue it was a boy and it is not an it but a he. As l pointed out colour does not make the sex nowadays they dressed in all colours. I still left a trail of shocked nurses for my question.

Re: Castrating my boy

Louise B — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:42:35 GMT

[quote user="Louisesadieandshads"]

This 'one size fits all approach' drives me nuts!

The way I see it is, as VNs we are are supposed to act with the welfare of our patients/animals under our care at the forefront of our minds. Therefore, we are acting badly if we with-hold information inorder to ensure that the owner does something which will be possibly be for the greater good for the wider dog population but which will have a negative impact on the welfare of their animal. I actually think we fail to do our jobs properly if we adopt a one size fits all approach.

[/quote]

Also, just to add, imagine I was a dog owner seeking advice on whether I should neuter my nervous six month old dog and the RVN advised "absolutely, great health benefits, prevent unwanted litters, etc, etc, etc blah blah blah (and did not mention the possible negative effects)" so I went ahead and neutered my dog. If I then had alot of problems with my dog due to fear/etc and this was as a consequence of the neutering and, if it could be shown that the nurse should have known that neutering a nervous dog could result in that dog's welfare suffering due to an increase in fear/stress/anxiety then surely I would have a case against said RVN with the RCVS or in law?

Re: Castrating my boy

Debbie Allgood — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:26:49 GMT

I am all for neutering asap if responsible breeding is not on the agenda however Nicky, another couple of months or so surely can't do any harm?!

Another option - why not breed you whippet with my Rotty....skinny rottweilers, that would make a nice change eh!!!?

Only kidding my (perfectly sized I might add!!!) baby will be getting spayed after her next season...was dying to have a litter from her due to her great hip score and wonderful nature but then I had to move into rented accomodation and thought it best to get her spayed. Plus Caro is right too many unwanted dogs at the moment. Unfortunately my girl also suffers from Phantom pregnancies - another reason for the importance of getting her spayed! In fact I am gonna start another topic about this 'cos the whole thing was a bit freaky!!! You can all let me know what you reckon!

Re: Castrating my boy

Louise B — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:26:28 GMT

[quote user="Judy Blythe"]

Absolutely- each dog should be considered individually and a recommendation made. The welfare consequences for a fearful dog are not good- so there is no advantage in making them even worse. If you are in a position to advise someone it is important that everything is considered. That is why I was trying to advise Nicky as an individual- not as a one size fits all.

[/quote]

This 'one size fits all approach' drives me nuts!

Caro - I think that the majority of pet owners are probably sensible. I think it is easy to get a jaded cynical view of pet owners when you have seen the negative consequences of overbreeding, etc on a daily basis but I think we see an unrepresentative sample in vet practice.

Just to twist the argument a bit. One of the reasons given for neutering is to give the dogs already in existence in shelters, etc a chance at life/adoption/avoidance of euthanasia. It seems to me that overpopulation of dogs exists for two reasons: oversupply (too many being produced) and too few dogs dying (dogs living longer due to better healthcare/disease management). We can reduce supply by neutering but we can also reduce lifespan by not treating e.g. renal disease, diabetes, undertaking critical care nursing after RTAs, etc. Both will lead to the same outcome: greater adoption of shelter dogs/fewer euthanasias of unwanted dogs.

Why is the latter unpalatable but the former acceptable?

Re: Castrating my boy

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:44:25 GMT

If the pet owning public was responsible then l would agree however to many are not (the majority) and so l stand by my comments. Neuter neuter neuter l am fed up with lovely animals being destroyed. because of no homes at rescue, behaviour problems, in bitches pyos in puppies parvo, in other animals hereditary problems (now out of control) and just all the death in general all because people wont take responsability for the lives that they have.

I spend a lot of my life in a major practice (ie not a small local one) and have become jaded at the sheer unreality of the uk public and l though l was jaded before. They refuse to listen wont go to get educated even to read a book as they know best close their ears to basic advice and animals suffer all the time.

I told one the other day his dog should go to training classes as was turning aggressive to other dogs and was a step away from turning that towards people. I was told you should see the kids. I told him l did not care about his kids l did care his dog was going to be destroyed as it was aggressive and would attack a human or animal in the next few months. He laughed at me and said no one will hurt my animals.

Go via the los angeles route of forced neutering and/or the germany route of if you breed an animal must have sat exams and got very very expensive licences and un neutred animals you pay a huge licence fee for and neutred ones a smaller amount, id chiping in all pets that have to be kept up to date and people should have to go to classes and sat an exam before they are allowed a pet. (of any sort as it is not just dogs and cats that are suffering)

Re: Castrating my boy

Judy Blythe — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:14:56 GMT

Re: Castrating my boy

Louise B — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:06:04 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

Telling people that is a recipe for disaster means yet more peolple will find an excuse not to neuter, means yet more puppies and yet more dogs destroyed.No not referin g to Nicky l mean the general mop

[/quote]

Sorry Caro but I disagree. I am not going to go into the whole neutering argument again but I will reiterate that owning an entire dog is not the same as allowing that dog to breed. In the light of research showing that castrating dogs can make them more fearful I would say that it is unethical to just blindly neuter dogs 'for the greater good' without some consideration of the effects of neutering on that dog. Being scared/fearful/stressed is not welfare-friendly (so may mean a lifetime of suffering) so, if neutering contributes to this, then neutering is not welfare-friendly for that dog.

I have never, and will never, blindly tell pet owners to neuter their dogs. I will discuss the pros/cons and let them make their own mind up.

Re: Castrating my boy

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 10:54:59 GMT

Re: Castrating my boy

Judy Blythe — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:41:59 GMT

Lots to consider Nicky- but the main one is his temperament. Is he bold and outgoing? If he is, it is fine to go ahead any time after 6 months. If he is slightly wimpy (like his mum :) !) then having him castrated could make him even more scared. There is recent research to say that removing the source of the bravery hormone (testosterone) in a nervous dog will just make things much worse. So in these cases it is much better to wait until he is much more mature before castration. Then he will have learned a lot more about the world and be less likely to be fearful because of experince rather than relying on testosterone.