Freedom Fences

Re: Freedom Fences

Caro Laithwaite VN — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 18:01:26 GMT

The lady would have found out not good to challenge me on that she would have been verbally kicked from here until new year and then been sent on her way.

Re: Freedom Fences

susan simone — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 17:04:31 GMT

Caro those were my thoughts excatly but when i suggested this the lady promoting them was very fiery and said she couldnt believe i could understimate vets in this way. I am glad i am not the only one who is cynical.

Apparently white flags are a visual aid and training is done first with these alone.

http://www.freedom-fence.co.uk/

Re: Freedom Fences

Caro Laithwaite VN — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:40:31 GMT

I want to know if "timmy" has any monetary gain in this. All to often that is what happens if not directly then indirectly.

Re: Freedom Fences

funkyfish — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 22:21:36 GMT

My main problem with these fences are that the animal has no idea where the boundry is with out getting shocked.

With normal livestock fences its a visible fence, often brightly coloured, which will shock the animal if they try and push past it. The small animal ones are buried under ground and the animal who has prev. been able to do what they want suddenly get a shock for no apparent reason.

What if an plane went over head, or a fire work went of as they were shocked? It would take the animal several shockes to work out the perimeter of the area they are aloud in as there is no visual signs for them, where as livestock fencing is very obvious.

Also if there are livestock around, any dog should be on the lead regardless if it is bothering the livestock or not. A loose dog, even if it is minding its own business, could upset livestock. If I saw a dog in the field with my ewes off lead, I'd have strong words with the owner, second time I'd shoot it. Dogs should be on a long line or similar to have more freedom but not off lead. My ewes are rare breed and their lambs to valuable in genetic terms to risk them aborting due to stress.

Re: Freedom Fences

Aimee Barber — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 08:54:50 GMT

i'm not saying these are a good thing, however used in the right situation there could be a use for them. I know someone who had a mad (and i mean mad) rescue greyhound, and she went after the sheep everytime they went for a walk. when she did she was like something demented, could hear you, would not stop. It then came down to 2 options. Stop walking her off the lead, and she was a star pupil the rest of the time and did everything you said (its was just the bloody sheep!!) or a shock collar. Now it was only a small shock and more something to pull her out the mind set than hurt her. and yes before you ask we tested it on ourselves first! that was a fun afternoon and it didnt hurt just felt like an intense virabtion, and i'm sure it hurt her less (due to the fur), anyway everytime she went after the sheep, one little buzz and she would stop and look around then hear her owner and come back. After a week or 2 just having the collar on meant she behaved, the owner doesn't even carry the remote any more.

So i do think it can be used in the right circumstances, otherwise you'd have one very unhappy dog who wasn't aloud to run in the woods.

Re: Freedom Fences

susan simone — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 08:40:50 GMT

Professor T.J. Gruffydd-Jones

Department of Clinical Veterinary Science

Langford House

Bristol, BS40 5DU

Tel: +44 (0)117 928 9558

Fax: +44 (0)117 928 9559

tim.gruffydd-jones@bristol.ac.uk

Ms S. Smith

Office of the Chief Veterinary Office

Welsh Assembly Government

Department of Rural Affairs

Cathays Park

CARDIFF

CF10 3NQ

TJGJ/jst

7^th February 2008

Dear Ms Smith

I write to offer my experience on the issue of “Electronic Shock collars” to be considered by the Welsh assembly.

My “credentials” are that I am a leading expert on feline medicine. My post is Professor of Feline Medicine and I am head of the Feline Centre at the University of Bristol, which is the leading UK clinical centre for feline studies. My career of over thirty years has been dedicated to feline work and I was the first to be recognised as a specialist in feline medicine by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. I have been actively involved in feline welfare charities, which has included 20 years as Chairman of the Feline Advisory Bureau and I am currently deputy chairman of Cats Protection, the largest UK feline welfare charity.

I also have personal experience of the use of the Freedom Fence for my own cats (I have “trained” 8 cats) as well as close contact with a number of colleagues/friends who have used the Freedom Fence, on my recommendation, for around another 12 cats.

My experience is restricted to the use of “invisible” containment fences for cats. I have no experience of the use of electronic collars in dogs and I feel it is very important that the difference in comparing the use of collars in cats and dogs is appreciated – and that the use of collars in cats is considered as a separate issue. “Correction collars” are not used in cats to my knowledge. Electronic collars are used solely for containment and there are important differences in their use in cats, compared to dogs, for this purpose.

Most people who use containment fences for cats do so because of previous distressing experience of having their cats involved in road traffic accidents. This was so in my case. I live in a quiet countryside area, but near a road. I have had two cats killed on the road and two badly injured. It became a choice of either confining my cats indoors (which I feel can significantly detract from a cat’s quality of life), have no cats or have a “freedom fence”. The installation of the fence has prevented any further road accidents or injuries to my 5 cats in the five years since I have had it.

This is the reason why most people use a containment fence for cats. In the case of dogs, a containment fence can allow dogs to be left in a garden unattended, but dogs can still have access outside without the need for a fence, through supervised walks with the owner. This is not possible for cats so a containment fence can be the only option if an owner wishes their cats to have access outside, but to avoid the risk of injury through road accidents. The containment fences are expensive (the total cost of my system was approaching £1000) so I believe that it is only responsible, caring owners who are highly motivated about the welfare of their cats, who use them.

My experience (of approaching 20 cats, including pedigree and non-pedigree cats) in a variety of different situations is that all cats have learned immediately how the fence works. They learn from the initial shock and subsequently respond to the warning sound to avoid the fence. I am almost certain that all my cats have never experienced a “shock” after the first learning experience.

I am aware that welfare concerns have been raised, particularly by some vociferous behaviourists. Nearly all the behaviourists I have discussed this with have admitted that they have no direct experience of the use of the fences with cats. I do, and I have not encountered any significant problems. I have heard largely anecdotal reports of behavioural problems arising from their use. I work with one of the leading feline veterinary behaviourists and my understanding is that her experience of problems relates to one likely case and one possible case. Any concerns about adverse effects of collars (which I believe are rare and usually minor) have to be balanced against the benefits of the fences. Road traffic accidents have been documented to be by far the most common single cause of premature death in cats. They also cause severe welfare issues through injuries, often severe, sustained through traffic accidents. Containment fences can contribute to enhancing quality of life for some cats that would otherwise be denied access outdoors and avoiding some of the behavioural and other issues that are recognised in cats confined indoors.

I do recognise that some consideration as to the suitability of particular situations is important and that a code of practice/guidelines for the use of fences may be advisable. My experience of the company from whom I purchased my system is that they act very responsibly in considering whether or not a system is appropriate.

The principle of the use of containment fences for cats is no different from that of their use for livestock and horses – the only difference is in the visibility of the fence.

I admit to being a passionate advocate of the fences for cats because I strongly believe that they have enormous welfare benefits. My experience of everyone else who I know who uses these fences is just as positive – if not perhaps so passionate.

In summary I believe there is an irrefutable case for the benefits of containment fences in cats, largely through preventing road traffic accidents, and banning them would be totally inappropriate.

Yours sincerely,

Professor Tim Gruffydd-Jones

Re: Freedom Fences

Julie-Anne Wilson — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 20:44:30 GMT

I think any form of "electric shock" is a big no-no. For any animal, I didn't know they used them for horses as well. I don't think it's a good thing, we always get told positive stimuli works better than negative.

Although if it's just a vibrate rather than a shock, I think that would be OK but I can't see a vibrate stopping a cat from going anywhere.

Re: Freedom Fences

BengalcatRVN — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 20:33:12 GMT

is this the invisable fence which triggers a collar on the cat, usually starts to vibrate as the cat approches?

Re: Freedom Fences

Katie Mansfield — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:15:01 GMT

I can understand their use for horses who may jump or knock down fences, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. (Having said that, where I used to share the mares quite often pulled their electric fencing down to get in with the geldings, especially when they were in season, so these fences aren't fool-proof and I don't think it acts as a deterrent).

In my opinion it is always wrong to use electric shock as a "punishment",no matter what species, be it fencing or collars, and I don't care what Cesar Milan says!!!!!!!

The other problem I can see with their use for cats is they will probably end up being used in domestic gardens. This is going to cause a problem for children - mine quite often climb up on our fence to see where they've kicked their ball. Not only that, but if it's against the law to electrify cars and doors to prevent thieves what about the likelihood of electrifying a burglar in your back garden. I foresee some very unnecessary compensation claiming court cases.....

K x

Re: Freedom Fences

Sophie Bedford RVN CertVNECC — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:46:34 GMT

Just to put a thought in the mix ...... it is very common practice for horses to be in electrified pens, why does this seem to be acceptable but noone is prepared to use it for a dog/cat - are horses less important, do they feel less pain? I think not....

Re: Freedom Fences

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:59:51 GMT

Can you upload the document or provide a link to it?

Re: Freedom Fences

Kelly Bainbridge RVN — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:13:32 GMT

I agree with Kirsty

Re: Freedom Fences

Kirsty Thorner RVN — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:50:56 GMT

I personally would never use anything that causes my animals to have an electric shock (ie. shock collar) to eliminate a certain behaviour. I think it's cruel