VN Regulation petition

Re: VN Regulation petition

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:54:06 GMT

Hello,

I do see your point. Here's my clarifications.

The foundation stone of everything I say is the progression of our profession.

i) I want there to be a legal requirement to be qualified (basic through to expert - everybody has a qualification). I feel that regulation is the first step towards this. I hope I am right - the various arguments put forward have persuaded me but I can only wait and see.

ii) Training: progression of the training system is currently happening with Clinical Coaching/Diploma/Degree etc. Let's wait to see if it enables more nurses to train and more practices to offer training. I believe it is more accessible than previously? Developing the training systems continues.

iii) Protection of the Veterinary Nurse title: I agree that Regulation may assist with this, let's see.

iv) Regulation applicable to the qualified only: Got to start somewhere - I agree with everyone being qualified from basic through to expert. That's the future? I hope so!

v) Basic qualification; absolutely agree.

vi) Everybody regulated: absolutely agree.

vii) Affordability of training: the nurse: benefits/costs: hardships myself, so I know what it takes. Dedication and debt. Got qualified! The practice: benefits/costs: student pay is generally much less than qualified staff and the practice retains staff (train to retain). The SVN gains skills and is useful to the practice as a pay-back. Been there, got the t-shirt. We all make our own decisions what we are willing to bear to get to where we need to be.

viii) Climbing on the backs of others? NEVER. Not EVER. It is a principle I uphold that everyone is equal and entitled to earn a fair share of the pie. A larger share of the pie for those that have strived to gain qualification is fair - and (if we get what we have both proposed) this would still be on a sliding scale from basic qualified through to expert qualified. Employment law, you should not reduce pay unless the employee agrees to it (this has happened to me). I agree this could happen in veterinary nursing. Choices. I would stay if I could, walk if I couldn't. Hopefully, as the profession progresses there will be enough space for everyone to adjust and remain happy.

ix) Patient care: bare mimimum of qualifieds. A qualified nurse can actually (legally) do more than an unqualified one... but this aside, it is surely down to choices again. Would I want to work at a practice that put its qualified (and unqualified) nurses into a kind of 'slavery'? No. Would I want as a member of the public to place my trust in a practice that so stretched its staff? No. Would I feel confident in their competence? No. Such places would quite rightly wither on the vine eventually, I feel.

xii) Cost is generally not the prime driving force in why someone chooses to go to a particular vet practice, it is confidence in their competence, (of course there are limits to this if costs are way beyond the owners purse).

xiii) Business minded: the caring and savvy practitioner will diversify, specialise and do whatever it takes to sensibly appeal to a changing market and thus survive. In fact, to advertise that you employ fully qualified nurses appeals to the customer enticement driver of faith in the competence of the staff, surely? I know it does me. I look for qualified staff in whatever service I need fulfilling...gives me confidence they have attained at least a minimum standard of workmanship.

xiv) Club membership? Not elitist me, at all. All welcome, especially if they share out the chocolate.... I've agreed with you - if we're all qualified (basic through to expert) - then we're all in the same club, how bloomin marvellous that would be. If we're not all qualified then, as detailed, I feel justified in asking for differentation as the qualified nurse is different! Differentation simply means the recognition of being good at what you do (in this case, educated to a standard accepted by the RCVS).

Finally, yes, I whole-heartedly agree with you. It would be good to hear opinions from veterinary surgeons. After all, we are all part of the team, vets and nurses together striving for the health and welfare of animals, and,as we cannot live on air, make some money so we can pay our bills. Are there any out there willing to speak????

Thanks again

Ali

Re: VN Regulation petition

Sal the 1st — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:35:29 GMT

Alison Clare Hickman - I am sorry but you are spectacularly missing the point. I respect your opinion none the less.

There is no legal requirement for nursing staff to be qualified - some nursing staff never get the chance to train - and proposed regulations will not address this. The title is not protected - it remains to be seen if regulation will do anything to resolve this.

Regulation will not prevent qualified nurses found lacking and removed from the register practicing. It will merely move them onto the listed VNs (tarring the reputation of those of us that are listed)

Regulation will only actually apply to those that hold a qualification - so if you only have 1 qualified nurse in a practice who cannot be in all places at all times how exactly is this going to improve nursing care? Unless the next step is to make that one qualified responsible for all the nursing staff and anything that goes wrong (think about that one!)

I dont disagree with regulation at all but what I want to see is a basic qualification that is affordable and accessible to all, is manadatory to all nursing staff (which can be built upon by those needing or wanting more specialist skills) and that is exactly what we dont have now. If everbody holds at a basic level the same qualification then everybody can be regulated. It would improve the level of nursing care because every single member of nursing staff will get a chance to train and every single person would be equally responsible for the care they are providing.

What we have now training wise is not accessible, not affordable and of little benefit to many practices.

There is nothing what so ever wrong with wanting a decent income for yourself after training hard for a qualification but I personally would not be happy with this if it is done by climbing on the backs of another group of less/non qualified people and forcing them to accept less than they are existing on now or forcing them out entirely ( which is what will happen) - but then thats just me, and if the qualifieds are asking for more money because they are so special do you really think a practice will want to increase the numbers of qualifieds they employ or will they just get by on the bare minimum and expect more work from them. How exactly will that improve patient care and how will that increase the demand for qualified nurses? There is only so much a practice can support in wages and that is dependant on its income. If you think that joe public will want to pay more because his felix or fido is being cared for by a qualified nurse then good on you but the reality is (especially with the economy the way it is) it isnt the case, people expect a fantastic service 24hrs continuous attention with all the bells and whistles and want to pay pence - which is why many practices employ non qual staff in the first place, they have to to survive.

If this situation is allowed to happen then I dont see it being a very happy future somehow. I dont like this 'I am a club member, I am special, sod you jack because I am fireproof' attitude. We all have a job to do and we all have a living to make.

It would be interesting to hear from some veterinary surgeons on this (and I dont just mean the high and mighty in the RCVS and the refferal centres)

Re: VN Regulation petition

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:21:30 GMT

Absolutely, unequivocally, unwaveringly correct , Phrin. I High Five you. It's a case of you don't know what you don't know until you learn what you SHOULD know...

Ali

Re: VN Regulation petition

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:31:06 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

we must maintain legally clear, understood and agreed to standards of animal health & welfare. This is a principle I feel ethically and morally duty-bound to up-hold so I have absolutely no problem with it being legal too, in fact I welcome it.

[/quote]

I think we all feel the same way, but until the role of a VN, whether listed, registered or merely qualified is set in stone, and the term "Veterinary Nurse" is protected in law - then its all just almost pointless! Aarrghhh!

I have also worked with, trained, and yep been for a long time an unqualified member of nursing staff. Personally, I found what I learnt at college changed how I nursed - especially with anaesthesia!

Unqualified nursing staff are invaluable, and often worth their weight in gold, but it scares me that I monitored anaesthetics as a 1st yr SVN / Unqual nurse for about 8-9 years, without actually understanding it properly! My L3 VN at college was a real eye opener about how ignorant I had been - in many subjects.

Of course thats just my point of view - I don't mean to sound arsey, but I THOUGHT I was a shit hot unqual GA nurse, and some referral vets agreed - until I actually learnt my L3 stuff !

Re: VN Regulation petition

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:51:29 GMT

[quote user="Claire1234"]

Dear Sal,

I also agree that you are not being 'anti-RVN' - you are speaking out for what you believe in.

This particular E-petition for the Early Day Motion is to protect the title 'Veterinary Nurse', to ensure that only people who have undertaken formal training, approved by the RCVS to become a VN/RVN/REVN, can call themselves a Veterinary Nurse (by law). This applies to all Listed and Registered VNs. This is a very small step, but a step in the right direction towards statutory regulation, and to ensure the welfare of our patients - which is the main/only reason we do this. We cannot assume that all nursing assistants are working within their capabilities and within the law as it stands currently.

There is a place for all nursing staff - qualified and non-qualified, and the most important thing is to work as team to provide the best care for our patients. There was a very interesting lecture at last weekend's BVNA Congress, presented by Andrea Dwane, explaining how Statutory Regulation is working for RVNs in the Republic of Ireland, and how the number of qualified VNs is increasing since the profession became regulated.

The speech given by the RCVS VN Council Chairman Liz Branscombe at the House of Commons on Tuesday can be found on the BVNA website - please have a look. www.bvna.org.uk

Claire Fraser RVN

President

British Veterinary Nursing Association

Representing Veterinary Nursing

[/quote]

Okay guys, can't contain myself any longer, here's my two bits worth...

I would like the title Veterinary Nurse protected by law. It doesn't stop or belittle all the great work done by lay staff/ANA's etc etc. It provides transparency to the general public. Jo Public should be able to readily identify which of the staff treating/handling/caring for their pet has studied / continues to study / continues to achieve a required (minimum) legal standard and is legally accountable for their actions in animal health and welfare. What is wrong with that? Nothing is hidden. The public (and that includes vets as employers) can make an informed choice who deals with their pet/animal. At the moment the lines are extremely blurred. Also, if (eventually) veterinary surgeons have a larger pool of regulated / listed nurses to employ isn't that better for our profession because, for example, (selfishly), why can't I as a regulated/listed nurse command a higher wage than unqualified nurses - like any other exam-qualified employee does in any other industry you could mention? Also, I agree that it is probably not necessary for every vet across the land to be entirely staffed with RVN / LVN's. As I said earlier, great works done by lay staff etc. However, wearing a business hat, just think how much more a veterinary business would turnover if it had qualified nurses doing Schedule 3 work (sorry Listed nurses...I just had to say it) and thus free-ing up the vet(s) to do other things? Moreover, and this is the most important part in my opinion, we must maintain legally clear, understood and agreed to standards of animal health & welfare. This is a principle I feel ethically and morally duty-bound to up-hold so I have absolutely no problem with it being legal too, in fact I welcome it. The law provides the bones to my muscle. I also believe the public have the right to know that I will stand by my convictions and that they have the additional protection that I have pledged to do so under the law (back to transparency again). I will stress that I have had the great pleasure in meeting and working with nurses who are unqualified in certificates but are vastly qualified in experience - valuable people, very valuable people to have as part of the team - I love you all, truly. However, they are not Veterinary Nurses. They are Animal Nurses. Different species. Different skills expected. Ergo, different (and protected) titles required.

My two bits over... Thanks.

Re: VN Regulation petition

Claire1234 — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:34:06 GMT

Dear Sal,

I also agree that you are not being 'anti-RVN' - you are speaking out for what you believe in.

The speech given by the RCVS VN Council Chairman Liz Branscombe at the House of Commons on Tuesday can be found on the BVNA website - please have a look. www.bvna.org.uk

Claire Fraser RVN

President

British Veterinary Nursing Association

Representing Veterinary Nursing

Re: VN Regulation petition

Tracy Windler RVN — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:36:23 GMT

I don't wish to push any member of staff out of the workplace, I feel there is a place for all qualified and unqualified staff in most practices. However, I do feel that it is important to protect our title and to ensure that people understand the role of a VN. Just because you limit what nursing support staff can carry out, does not mean there is not a place for them in the practice- and I don't mean just cleaning floors and kits. In fact, in my experience (ok, only having worked in 7 practices over the last 12 years) this is the way most practices run. Definitely most of the practices in Shropshire employ at least 1 RVN/LVN.

Re: VN Regulation petition

Sal the 1st — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:53:12 GMT

amendment to my original post

I have checked the figures in the latest VN Times - there are 1463 listed but unregulated VNs and 8682 Registered and regulated VNs - so i was way out on the RVNs.

Re: VN Regulation petition

Shelly vn — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:57:53 GMT

Sal, your response here is well thought out and has got me thinking! As an RVN, I supported (somewhat blindly?!) the register/regulation. I had to become registered as i was an assessor, but it all seemed to make sense. However your post here has really made me think about whether the profession is actually ready for us VN's to be regulated seeing as so many practices (mine included) rely so heavily on well trained, hard working and well supervised unqualified staff. You've really given me food for thought! Thanks!

Re: VN Regulation petition

Katie Mansfield — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:01:39 GMT

Sal, I don't think you come across as anti-RVN, and you put your thoughts across in a manner in which people can understand; thoughtfully and with respect.

K x

Re: VN Regulation petition

Sal the 1st — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:36:10 GMT

I know many people on here feel I am just being anti RVN for the sake of being obtuse but if I can just explain my reasoning maybe you will understand where I am coming from a little more.

At present we have upwards of 11,000 Registered Veterinary Nurses and around 1,400 Listed Veterinary Nurses (sorry don’t have exact figures but I think I am pretty close with those and I am sure somebody will correct me if I am not) but the majority of nursing staff employed in practice (and I don’t think anybody has adequately quantified them) are neither. They may be ANAs ACAs or a multitude of other titles and some without title, they may have had some training, they may have had no training, they may be very experienced or they may have minimal experience who knows? But none- the-less they are the majority group.

Now if I understand it correctly the aim of registration/regulation ultimately is to limit the participation in nursing duties of non qualified and non registered/regulated nursing staff to the point where veterinary practices are compelled to employ regulated nurses to do nursing duties. Now that sounds good doesn’t it ? It has to be good all nursing staff doing the same thing and to the same standard, and carrying the can for their own screw ups but here is my problem.

Remembering that non qualified /non registered staff are a majority group and that the majority of veterinary practices in this country employ to a greater or lesser extent non qualified/non registered staff if you limit these people out of existence who is going to replace them? Are Veterinary Surgeons actually going to want to replace them?

The veterinary nursing qualifications we have now - lets take a look at them. We have the diploma which now takes 3 years to get a basic qualification and the degree which takes 4. They haven’t exactly been popular with veterinary practice for all sorts of reasons ( and not just the fact that there is no legal requirement to employ qualified nursing staff).

So the plan is to restrict to the death the non qualified/ non regulated nursing staff and force them out whilst at the same time lengthening the basic qualification in time and cost and complication? It just doesn’t add up - there wont be enough qualified nurses ( we already know that there is a shortage of qualified nurses now!), the best you could hope for would be a single qualified nurse in some practices.

Have the Veterinary Surgeons agreed that this is what they want? Have they even been asked? - because if they haven’t this is as doomed as the 2004 proposal to have only qualified nurses monitoring anaesthetics, it was a great idea in theory but unworkable and if I remember correctly it was SPVS who put paid to that one. The BVA only represents one group of veterinary surgeons just as the BVNA only represents one group of veterinary nurses.

I just don’t feel as it stands now it has been properly thought out and needs more time to resolve problems before forcing this through.

Hope that clarifies my position on this.

Re: VN Regulation petition

Sal the 1st — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:23:26 GMT

hang on a minute - let me get this right. This petition is really the same as the original protect the title petition with the added little bit that VN Council, and BVNA are saying that they are fit to regulate ALL veterinary nurses. So what are you really saying? that you will still only be interested in those that have bothered to qualify and everybody else involved in nursing can do their own thing but just not call themselves veterinary nurses? I am smelling a rat here for the LVNs among us.

this needs further explanation before people blindly put their names to it

Re: VN Regulation petition

Sarah Southworth RVN CertVNECC — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:07:11 GMT

done, lets hope this helps