Fake VN!

Re: Fake VN!

Dippy — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:19:30 GMT

That's exactly what i was trying to say in the first place. I can't speak for the practice involved in the actual legal case but I know that when I worked with her, there was no reason to doubt the reasons given for the information which was supplied at the time. I'm not going into any more detail than that as it's not my place to but I personally wouldn't have had any reason to question what seemed totally feasible and on the basis that there was also a locum agency involved, you do kind of assume that you have the added security of them having followed this up - maybe you shouldn't but I guess until something like this case comes to light, you don't have reason to think the worst of people. With regard to the RVN status (not the theft part), knowing the person involved (for a while, not in touch anymore I might add) I'm still not convinced that it was a premeditated decision to go out and deceive anyone as such, i think it may have been sheer panic after an almighty mess up of her career and panic/desperation/thinking she would get it sorted at some point and could get away with muddling along until then. Just my humble opinion and I may be totally wrong as I have no idea what else has occurred since!

Re: Fake VN!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:40:33 GMT

[quote user="Danielle Pountain"]I will admit I haven't read each and every post on this tread and I no means which to incite anger or initiate any debate on the necessity for recognition of veterinary nursing! I am an RVN and do hope for professional recognition! But I want to ask a few few questions about this case which will either sow seeds in people's mind or perhaps the answers will satisfy bot mine and some colleagues curiosity! Do we all know with out any doubt that this girls employment was initiated on the understanding she was 'qualified'? Lots of practices employ unqualified staff (not mine) are we sure this didn't just turn into an issue after she was caught stealing? I think there may be more to this story then publicised! I'm not in anyway condoning this young ladies actions and have never met her or worked with her but I have to consider all possibilities.... I don't know if her professional circumstances were declared to her employer or colleagues and then as a result of the terrible dishonestly (theft) all the circumstances have been compounded to make a much more compelling story!!!!! I'd also like to add there are some extremely unscrupulous locum agencies out there, who are extremely pushy! Have you ever inadvertently given them your details during a congress competition and been bombarded with correspondence?? How much did they really know?? Again not wishing to offend or incite anger but I feel many will understand this sentiment!!!

[/quote]

Yes this was pretty much what I was thinking, that the real offence was theft but the secondary crime made for better reading.

Re the locum agency I think I probably know the one you mean. I once made an enquiry about registering with them (nothing more than that) and didn't do any work for them at all because I found my own work and then they came up with a permanent position which I already knew about and was already going for interview before they told me. Result = the practice has to pay them a finders fee or face legal action and the practice then pays me less as a salary to compensate them for the couple of thousand they are paying the agency! Did the agency check my references or cv or qualifications - hell no because they didnt even have my address only a phone number. It took me over 4 years to stop this agency pestering me. They were even ringing me whilst I was at work offering me locum work having supposedly just placed me in a permanent job! Maybe I should have felt flattered that I was in such demand but actually being offered locum rates of @8.00 per hour I felt pretty insulted.

Re: Fake VN!

danielle83 — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:59:41 GMT

I'm pleased as someone who appears to have been quite close to this case and may have a few more details you are satisfied :-)! I do wonder however how much encouragement this young lady may of had from the 'locum' agency to 'BIG' up her status. I may be completely incorrect and out if order here, but I have had the unfortunate experience if dealing with some agencies that I would like to see bankrupt!!! (that's the most polite thing I could think of!)

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:34:07 GMT

I remember this case when it first came to light and the nurse was supplied by an agency. The practice say they requested a qualified nurse and this was never challenged by the agency, they just used the small print in their contract,as an excuse, as it says the practices should double check all qualifications (does anyone ever do this? We do now!!). When the case was reported, it was stated that she claimed her registration from the RCVS was pending. So, although this is not concrete, I am satisfied that I have come to a reasonable conclusion.

Re: Fake VN!

danielle83 — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:04:48 GMT

I will admit I haven't read each and every post on this tread and I no means which to incite anger or initiate any debate on the necessity for recognition of veterinary nursing! I am an RVN and do hope for professional recognition! But I want to ask a few few questions about this case which will either sow seeds in people's mind or perhaps the answers will satisfy bot mine and some colleagues curiosity! Do we all know with out any doubt that this girls employment was initiated on the understanding she was 'qualified'? Lots of practices employ unqualified staff (not mine) are we sure this didn't just turn into an issue after she was caught stealing? I think there may be more to this story then publicised! I'm not in anyway condoning this young ladies actions and have never met her or worked with her but I have to consider all possibilities.... I don't know if her professional circumstances were declared to her employer or colleagues and then as a result of the terrible dishonestly (theft) all the circumstances have been compounded to make a much more compelling story!!!!! I'd also like to add there are some extremely unscrupulous locum agencies out there, who are extremely pushy! Have you ever inadvertently given them your details during a congress competition and been bombarded with correspondence?? How much did they really know?? Again not wishing to offend or incite anger but I feel many will understand this sentiment!!!

Re: Fake VN!

annaschu — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 02:52:01 GMT

Good grief - surely you'd take one look at him and think something didn't quite add up?

Still, there's veterinary practices and veterinary practices as well all know!!!!

Re: Fake VN!

louise170388 — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:01:00 GMT

possibly! victoria vets? :) lol

Re: Fake VN!

Dippy — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:48:08 GMT

I wonder if that was the same practice as me? Lol!

Re: Fake VN!

louise170388 — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:58:21 GMT

I also worked with the=is same girl in derbyshire very briefly.. she caused all sorts of problems for the practice, thank god shes been found out and prosecuted!

Re: Fake VN!

Katie Mansfield — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:57:45 GMT

Blimey!!

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-events/news/bogus-vet-arrested-in-swindon/

K x

Re: Fake VN!

Dippy — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:38:09 GMT

There's a piece in this week's Vet Times about it, which contains a little more information - page 5.

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:14:01 GMT

Don't necessarily want it clarifying one way or the other, just clarification would be nice. I don't have a problem with lay staff carrying out procedures such as these if they have adequate training. After all, many lay staff working in laboratory situations, DEFRA etc carry out blood sampling. but have to demonstrate competance through a similar protocol that Nick described.

Re: Fake VN!

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 11 Oct 2011 01:46:45 GMT

A) To clarify would need an act of law as it is a legal document
B) It would screw up all those practices who use unqualified staff and perish you doing that

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:10:03 GMT

Serves me right for making the dreaded "human nurse/vet nurse" analogy! But the Sch 3 debate continues! Why the hell can't they just clarify it??!!

Re: Fake VN!

Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA — Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:06:50 GMT

My "human" nurse friend had to do a whole module about this kinda stuff.... when I qualified as a Vet nurse... I kinda just got on with it... trial and error style!...

Re: Fake VN!

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 08 Oct 2011 13:10:21 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

Lay staff in human medicine carry out blood sampling, so they must have the legislation clarified.

[/quote]

This is true. However, within my Trust (and probably most other NHS Trusts) we have to undertake a half day theory and practical based teaching session followed by a minimum of 10 supervised successful attempts at cannulation and/or venepuncture before being deemed competent. at the same time an ANTT (Aseptic Non-Touch Technique) assessment must be carried to ensure that the procedure is being carried out correctly. Then on a yearly basis a log of ten successful attempts must be logged as well as an ANTT Assessment. We aren't just let loose on patients from day one.

Are far as I'm aware no such training exists in Veterinary Industry and during my studying I had to write an essay on learning the skill of cannulation I compared the two learning styles ie within my work as a VN and also in my current job role. I think that if such training existed within the vet industry yes you could deem lay persons competent at performing such tasks as venepuncture and/or cannulation.

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:04:46 GMT

Its purely down to interpretation. If you consider placing an iv catheter or taking blood, a minor surgical procedure, thats your personal interpretation. Other people do not consider these things surgical procedures. Lay staff in human medicine carry out blood sampling, so they must have the legislation clarified.

I have read through the actual wording of the act and it does not clarify anywhere what is considered a minor surgical procedure. It is specific about who can prescribe pom meds and who can administer pom meds (under direction of a vet). So according to the law, lay staff cannot apply, for example, stronghold to a client's animal, only a vet, L/R/S VN (under direction of a vet), the owner, or a member of their household can do it. Its crazy, I know, but someone had decided that should be clarified, but not the definition of "minor surgical procedures".

Re: Fake VN!

Gillian Davidson — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:24:31 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

[quote user="Gilfly"]

Schedule 3 covers im, iv injections and blood sampling, does it not...many vets allow unqualified staff to carry out these tasks.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, "Schedule 3" procedures are not specified in the legislation, so although many of us consider that iv/im injections, blood sampling etc are tasks only qualified nurses are allowed to undertake, this is not clarified by the law. It merely states "minor surgical procedures". So it leaves a bit of a loop hole. Even the RCVS could not clarify what procedures this included (interview with a RCVS representative included in "that" Panorama programme)

[/quote]

But they are acts of veterinary medicine which lay persons are not allowed to carry out.

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:36:47 GMT

[quote user="Gilfly"]

Schedule 3 covers im, iv injections and blood sampling, does it not...many vets allow unqualified staff to carry out these tasks.

[/quote]

Re: Fake VN!

Gillian Davidson — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 21:34:00 GMT

Schedule 3 covers im, iv injections and blood sampling, does it not...many vets allow unqualified staff to carry out these tasks.

Re: Fake VN!

Tracy Windler RVN — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 13:35:30 GMT

[quote user="Katietaz"] Surely you get notification from RCVS that you passed then you just wait for the certificate.[/quote]

I passed my exams in 2006, sent my portfolio off to be verified shortly after (they were verifying all our college's portfolios at the time) and it was lost by the verifier. After 6 months, it was found, then instead of being sent to me, as I requested, it was returned to my tutor, who was off on compassionate leave at the time! I was about 80miles away from the college, so had to wait for her to return to ask for my portfolio.....THEN......when it eventully arrived, having been verified, there were no forms to register with the RCVS. I called the RCVS, but they said I cannot register without the forms and the forms are sent when you pass. I then had a long wrangle with the RCVS about sending me the forms. Consequentially, I did not register until 2008. Infact, at the time (might have changed now) you could qualify as a nurse and never actually register with the RCVS. So you are Qual, but not Listed or Registered.

I disagree that she didn't do anything wrong per-sei (is that how you spell it?!), as she was claiming to be qualified, but was not even registered as an SVN. I was covered by my SVN registration for a certain length of time after I passed my exams (I think I was cutting it a bit fine, but was still covered!)

Re: Fake VN!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 09:17:43 GMT

at risk of being seen as thick - what is the difference between this lass who is working as a locum, who has told people that she has training but isnt qualified and a person calling themselves a veterinary nurse working in practice with full agreement of their boss with no training. Is the difference just that one is deceiving a member of the RCVS and the public and the other is deceiving the public with the agreement of a member of the RCVS? - there must be a lot more to this story?

Re: Fake VN!

Dippy — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 07:31:54 GMT

It wasn't quite as cut and dry as that, there was a little more to it but I'm not willing to type it on here. The reason was totally believable though and there was no cause to suspect it wasn't genuine. Also, when people come through locum agencies who have supposedly done all the relevant checks, I know a lot of practices who don't take up any further references themselves.

I guess we'll probably never really know the full story of reasons behind it, can only make our own assumptions....

Re: Fake VN!

Katie Mansfield — Wed, 05 Oct 2011 07:22:33 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]"almost qualified subject to paperwork".[/quote]

Don't you think that sounds weird? It's amazing no-one else thought that sounded wrong before they employed her. Surely you get notification from RCVS that you passed then you just wait for the certificate. I knew my Dip Animal Management grades in June, yet the certificate only arrived last week. I was able to prove my grades by printing the notification off the college portal.

Guess the locum agency will be checking properly in future....

K x

Re: Fake VN!

Dippy — Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:24:38 GMT

[quote user="Katietaz"]

She was kicked off her course and didn't qualify, claimed she had, no-one checked, she easily got employed by duping a practice (and possibly others) in the process, and proved just how easy it is to pass as a VN, and then, to top it all, stole from her employer.

[/quote]

That's what I was sayig previously - she never actually claimed to be qualified, just "almost qualified subject to paperwork". However, the reason for not yet being quite qualified is what was lied about and therefore I assume that she had been working on this basis for some time and possibly would have continued to if this hadn't come to light, not being able to go back and qualify having been kicked off the course.