Dodgey Courses!

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Katie Mansfield — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:41:22 GMT

No, certainly sounds a bit strange, but that's probably why the RCVS have reported them to Trading Standards!! Just feel sorry for anyone who signed up thinking they were gonna end up with an RCVS qualification

K x

Re: Dodgey Courses!

NJ_VN — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:12:15 GMT

[quote user="Katietaz"]

[quote user="NJ_VN"] 2 years is the length of a Foundation Degree, 3 years is for a Batchelors[/quote]

For most degrees, yes, my husbands doing a 2 yr Fds in computer programming, but the VN Fds is 3 yrs and the BSc 4 (or at least that how it works at the RVC).

K x

[/quote]I know, I'm on the FdSc veterinary nursing! Lol. Like i said, its only 3 years due to the placement which has to be done. So i cant see how they can offer 2 years and have all the placement in that as well as lecture time

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Katie Mansfield — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 08:46:59 GMT

[quote user="NJ_VN"] 2 years is the length of a Foundation Degree, 3 years is for a Batchelors[/quote]

For most degrees, yes, my husbands doing a 2 yr Fds in computer programming, but the VN Fds is 3 yrs and the BSc 4 (or at least that how it works at the RVC).

K x

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:23:09 GMT

meant to post this earlier but only just found it

http://www.vetnurse.co.uk/forums/p/12507/108386.aspx#108386

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:12:01 GMT

[quote user="Susan Jackson"]

remember a similar thread on a Vet practice (sorry can't remember which one) that was doing a similar scheme but not accredited.

[/quote]

yes there are plenty of places out there doing their own training - maybe they are fed up with what is happening to veterinary nurse training too? - and in fact that isnt a question it is a statement as I have just been speaking to one of them.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

r-more — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:05:35 GMT

I can see why some want veterinary nursing to "go it alone" away from the RCVS but as it stands the RCVS are the governing body of the veterinary profession, for the nursing part of the profession to break away would require a even bigger change to statute than just a new veterinary surgery act. Also, how can you have a stand alone profession if there isn't a standardised qualification (albeit with various delivery methods) that defines the profession?

If the current recgonised qualifying scheme isn't adequate, then it needs changing. However, some organisation or other going off on their own whim is just starting from scratch again- the qualification won't be officially recognised and it will take time until it is. The shortage of qualified nurses is an issue, but the issue of why there is this shortage needs addrssing itself and not just a "quackery" approach.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Fuzzyduck — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:52:24 GMT

Until the RCVS make it more difficult for practices to use unqualified nurses as 'nurses' by either imposing fines if caught or making it illegal to employ unqualified and untrained staff, unfortunately nothing will change, i just try to change things and improve things in the practice i am currently in while knowing the dreadful practices that are out there.

What does comcern me however about these courses is i have been employed by many practices as a locum and permanent member of staff and very often have never been asked to prove my qualification or show myself on the RVN register.

So there are going to be all these 'qualified' nurses who are not qualified in the eyes of the RCVS who say to their employers i have a degree in 'veterinary nursing' or i am 'qualified' when actually they are not, and all these employers who dont check are employing unqualified staff further undemining the actual qualification us qualified VNs have worked so hard for. With no regulation by the RCVS in these 'qualifications' who knows what they will actually be taught or whether even the information they are taught will be relevent or even correct!

Re: Dodgey Courses!

NJ_VN — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:39:37 GMT

[quote user="r-more"]

Even though the £425 is only for the foundation stage, this seems rather cheap for what is apparently 1/4 of the "degree", and a 2 year programme is far to short to warrant a degree, at least in the UK.

I can understand why people may want alternatives to the two options currently available (diploma or degree) but if "schools" start springing up without standardisation it will add confusion and undermine the qualifying process.

[/quote]Ive allready said how i disagree with this, but just FYI, 2 years is the length of a Foundation Degree, 3 years is for a Batchelors

My course is a foundation degree in science and its only taking me 3 years as we have to fuffil the RCVS placment weeks,but my friends on sports horse management etc have graduated after 2 years

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:21:18 GMT

I hear you - but there has been a shortage of qualified veterinary nurses for years - In fact when I took a job in 1994 the practice I joined had been looking for a qualified nurse for over 6months and had drawn a blank, so they took me a 2nd year trainee. The reason many practices use for having unqualified staff is that there arent the qualified staff around for them to employ- ie 2011, 17yrs down the line there is still a shortage of qualified nurses, nothing has changed. So I guess by ensuring there is always a shortage of qualified staff yes it does ensure that qualifieds get a better wage? (and actually I feel that is dabateable as we are only worth what an employer can afford or wants to pay) but doesnt limiting the number of qualified nurses also ensure that there will always be a requirement for unqualified, poorer paid staff to fill the gaps and doesnt it also ensure that there will always be practices that slip through the net and never employ qualified staff?. I dont see this as progession I see this as strangulation. I cannot see at the moment how progression and growth could be any slower?- so in short what we are doing now isnt working. We must start looking at different ways of doing things.

Yes protecting the title would be good - could have been done long ago but it wasnt, but to be honest until there is an actual legal requirement for nursing staff to hold a qualification does it actually matter what you call them?

I would like to see veterinary nursing divorced from the RCVS and is associated baggage and the only way that can happen is to find different ways of doing things. I feel that the RCVS cannot adequately represent or govern both veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses, there are bound to be conflicts. I must admit looking at the recent draft for the code of conduct I am far from happy that nurses will swear an oath of alliegance to the RCVS as this will effectively tie veterinary nursing to the RCVS forever,(it hasnt gone un noticed!) so it will be a case of same old stuff, - its time we cut the strings.

The waters arent just muddy - they are stagnant.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

r-more — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:17:15 GMT

One thing that would help is the protection of the title "Veterinary Nurse", the problem here is an issue of the statutory regulation required. I'm no lawer but I do know that getting a change to legislation through parliament is an incredibly slow and long process, laws take years to draft and get approved. If an array of qualifications spring up it could muddy the water's on what constitutes a qualified veterinary nurse - at least in the eyes of employers and pet owners if not law or the RCVS's eyes.

The demand for training places outstrips the availability, course like the one in discussion could lead to more people "qualifying" than there is demand. This might meet the demand for qualified nurses in the shorter term but in the longer may lead to more "qualified" nurses than there is requirement and thus push down salaries, career prospects etc. There has already been mention that "VN" and "RVN" could cause confusion in terms of what being qualified means, a further designation/status will add to this, especially as these other qualifications can vary in terms of content, length of study etc. Flexible access to courses is a good thing, but it needs to be a uniform qualification - why else does the RCVS ensure that foreign qualified vets and nurses meet the UK standards as opposed to just letting them register?

Veterinary nursing in relation to other professions is rather young, anything that distracts from a organised strategy at this stage could slow the progression and growth of the profession.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Susan Jackson — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 23:38:55 GMT

I get what your saying Sal, why have all this training yet anyone can be in the trade working as a nurse. etc etc. I am worried about the misleading advertisement of this course and remember a similar thread on a Vet practice (sorry can't remember which one) that was doing a similar scheme but not accredited.

So just a word of support for all those people who do training and support student Veterinary nurses. They do an amazing job and it is really hard work. The course is not easy and nor should it be and well done to everyone who succeeds. I agree 'Veterinary Nurse' should be protected like the rest of you. But I also agree that it should not be achieved by a tick box system and I like the fact that it takes work and effort to accomplish.

Yes you're right ,technically the link it does not mention the RCVS but it does emply a qualification in Veterinary Nursing. Now I remember when I was looking in to how I could be a Veterinary Nurse. I made some enquiries and found out about the RCVS, but before then I didn't have a clue who they were and what they did. There will be many people in the same place seeing that website and if they are not told what is required then they will do it all for nothng.

Yes I also agree that some practices are not really following the accreditation and TP rules but the RCVS set the standard. It is up to the Vets, Nurses, Students and lecturers to work by them. There are those that don't, and I'm sure in any trade (Builders, plumers, restaurants etc) there are people that don't do what they ought to. We should be performing to these standards not for risk of been caught or someone standing behind them saying you shouldn't be doing that!

As far as the RCVS throwing money away, I don't agree with all the decisions that are made but then if I thought that strongly about it then maybe I should try for Council member!

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:37:58 GMT

ok point accepted - but if regulation, standardisation of nursing and training is so important to the future of veterinary nursing why is this not being addressed? Why hasnt statutary training and regulation been brought in for all members of nursing staff? Why are a large number of staff being ignored? (or should that be left to their own devices) . The RCVS are only governing the people who have already undertaken or are undertaking their approved training - it would seem everybody else can go hang.

As a locum I too have been horrified at what I have seen happening in practices - some of them training practices and PSS practices I will add.

Nowhere on the link supplied can I see that there is any implied affiliation with the RCVS - they are not saying anywhere that there is. As most people are already aware there is no protection of the veterinary nurse title so for a student of their course there would be nothing legally against them calling themselves veterinary nurses.I cannot see anywhere on the site where the company are giving the impression their students will be entitled to register with RCVS - unless I have missed it or somebody has more information than I do on this. The only point I could see that might be sticky is the schedule 3 - but then if the RCVS want to enforce this it will also have to start investigating the 100's of cases of breach of schedule 3 that occur on a daily basis.

I dont know if the course is good or bad without the information directly from the company - and without that information neither does anybody else.

I have no doubt the RCVS will throw lots of money at this to get a result - but to what end?

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Fuzzyduck — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:29:35 GMT

At the end of the day any qualification needs to be recognised by the RCVS, whether you like it or not they are the governing body, and to be honest the new qualification is good and will hopefully help to improve the standard of nursing care in practice and bring those practices and nurses living in the dark ages and providing the most basic of services in to the 21st century.

People and their pets deserve better than alot of practices offer in terms of care and services, as a locum i have been horrified at some of the care patients have recieved, more pets are insured therefore deserve the best and the standards need to improve.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:34:03 GMT

[quote user="r-more"]

[/quote]

well in the interests of fair competition and a qualification more relevant to general practice maybe this is what it needs

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:55:22 GMT

just create a random email address such as joe bloggs, John doe etc etc

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Dippy — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:53:33 GMT

I wonder whether anyone has actually emailed them to request information and ask certain questions? Might have to be a non qualifed bod though cos if they know they're under suspicion from the RCVS, they might look you up on the register!!!

Re: Dodgey Courses!

r-more — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:50:00 GMT

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:15:53 GMT

£425 is the cost of the foundation part only according to their site which is comparable with other courses I have seen (VCA)- being curious I would like to know exactly what the quality of training both theoretical and practical is being offered before I deem a course to be dodgy. I dont condone dodgy courses and there are many out there - ie behaviour, and animal physiotherapy to name just two and these are now being offered at a higher level to already qualified nurses and animal care qualifications for those starting out that carry 'accreditation' and promise their students the moon on a stick in the veterinary world if they sign up and actually deliver very little. Offering trainees at whatever level unfair expectations and fleecing them of their money in the process isnt fair , it stinks but it has been going on for years - however I do feel that there should be viable alternatives allowed that break the stranglehold the RCVS and others have on veterinary nursing at the moment, I would like to see a bit more competition in this area and a lot more commonsense, it could benefit veterinary nursing immeasurably.

Lets face it the title veterinary nurse isnt protected - anybody can call themselves a veterinary nurse (and they do), it isnt a legal requirement that nursing staff hold a qualification (and a large number dont) and the RCVS and others have allowed this situation to happen and carry on. Its no good crying foul now , because others will follow. Ok I acknowledge that sched 3 without qualification is an illegal act but there are so many grey areas within sched 3 which are open to numerous interpretations and have never been adequately defined.How many 'illegal' acts are carried out up and down the country every single day? - and not a word is mentioned.

Surely any training is better than non - and at the moment it has been made so damn difficult for trainees and also practices that want to train staff that they really cant be blamed for looking elsewhere to fullfil training requirements.Maybe we should find out more about this course before deciding for ourselves if it is dodgy or not.

I am surprised the RCVS hasnt involved itself in this a lot earlier - but maybe this is the first time they have felt threatened??

So until I know more about the course, what it entails and where the degree comes from and which country then .....

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Selena Carnell — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:26:39 GMT

Giggling direct veterinary services Ltd comes up with nothing.. So they are to too keen to be too popular then.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Sarah Bolton — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:26:08 GMT

I've just had a look at the site. All looks a bit dodgy to be. Very vague with the information. Costs are not realistic and an honours degree would certainly take longer than two years to complete.

Re: Dodgey Courses!

Selena Carnell — Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:24:15 GMT

Indeed, it says the course is accredited .. Btu with whom certainly not the RCVS, I think they would be forced to shut the course down or change the title because all in all in is not a degree in veterinary nursing... As your not a veterinary nurse at the end of it and you will not be registered or listed and will not be legally covered on the schedule 3. It guarantees a job... That is more worrying?

Re: Dodgey Courses!

NJ_VN — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:24:01 GMT

Omg! worrying indeed. I feel sorry for the people who have enrolled thinking they will become an RVN! what a waste of money :\