Behaviour

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:19:46 GMT

Find the money for a chicken, I am sure Louise can help

Re: Behaviour

nicola heaney — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:09:39 GMT

hey thanks for all that its great, now just have to find the money

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:21:39 GMT

We [feather] Mite agree with you ST

Re: Behaviour

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:49:24 GMT

Thats what I like, tweet behaviour amongst friends

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:47:22 GMT

Fair 'game'. Lets make up and sit down for a chick flick....

Re: Behaviour

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:38:56 GMT

Now now Ladies, no "***" fighting on the forums

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:36:22 GMT

Takes an old broiler to know one

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:33:38 GMT

more like old hen

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:32:14 GMT

Hey, I'm not a cockeral you know, I'm a hot chick!

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:28:19 GMT

Keep your pecker up

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:25:49 GMT

Stop crowing with glee you old cro(w)ne!

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:39:54 GMT

Ruffled your feathers hehehehe

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:17:42 GMT

How fowl, you p(h)easant!

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:51:35 GMT

cluck clukc cluck

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:02:23 GMT

[quote user="Jenny T"]

Just to set the record straight re the COAPE diploma

There are, I think, 4 weekends of full-time lectures / theory work. However, this is only a part of the course. There is a large amount of home study, essays and projects. My reading list was huge, I even had to take a couple of the books on holiday with me to get through them all.

For one of my first assignments I spent the day at a local RSPCA observing cats in the cattery. I then wrote a report concerning their behaviour in response to their environment, discussing positive initiatives and possible improvements. I also wrote essays discussing various aspects of behaviour and training theory.

Later projects concerned actual behaviour consultations that I conducted, dealing with genuine behaviour cases. All the students had to find behaviour cases to work on. We were even taught how to run a consultation, including effective communication with the owner and writing reports for owners and referring vets.

The course was hard work and really pushed you to use the theory you were taught to consider all aspects of actual behaviour cases. This could include diet, pharmaceuticals, training, genetics, breed specific behaviours, hedonic budgets, emotionality, environmental and neurochemical reinforcement etc. The tutors offered plenty of support for your home study, but really expected you to work hard at the assignments you were set.

The course is so highly recommended by the people who take it because it is so comprehensive. Furthermore, once qualified you still have COAPE support eg via it's behaviour forum.

So, it is not just an expensive 8 day course where you just sit through lectures and come out with a diploma. You do a great deal of thoroughly scrutinised, in-depth practical work, but in your own time. This is after all a distance learning course.

I thoroughly agree with previous comments made regarding "behaviourists" with worthless so-called qualifications. I have come across highly dubious advice given to clients from "behaviourists" who really do not know what they are doing and just make matters far worse. I have also read various books and seen various TV programmes where damaging and in some cases dangerous advice has been given.

[/quote]

Hi JennyT,

Thank you for providing us with more info about the course. I have to admit that, having looked at the website the course did look like 'just a rather nice money-maker' for the organisers but your posting gives me alot more confidence in the quality of the finished product (graduate of the program) as it does have practical experience built in.

I still do have reservations thought about walling off other courses, etc on the grounds that we cannot be sure that they are good so push people away from them. £4000 is alot to spend and people who want a taster/basic grounding should have other options. I do know that there is alot of sh*t out there - only yesterday while looking for at dog training classes in Edinburgh I came across another f*cking 'dog whisper' who thinks curing dogs problems is all about demoting them status-wise - argggghhhhhhh. But I have seen enough postings from VNs on this site to know that alot of VNs think the same. It is also worth noting that the BVNA behaviour course *was* (when I did it - circa 2000/1) covering dominance. We had to grade each aspect of the lectures and I graded this lecture 0% because I felt even back then that dominance theory/application at that time was misguided and dangerous to the bond between owner and dog. I would just add, before anyone thinks I am dissing this course, that I felt that the rest of the course was a very good - basic - introduction to behaviour.

I almost destroyed the relationship between myself and my dog several years previously trying to implement a rank reduction programme (and before that the "dominance rolls, scruffing, shaking, throwing to the ground, etc of the previous era) which made me miserable as I much prefer cooperation to a 'me tarzan, you jane' approach. It was John Rogerson who put the relationship between my dog & I back together (I had got as far as taking my 'aggressive, unmangeable' dog to the vets for PTS but couldn't bring myself to do it - but I was a social paria in my neighhood due to 'Dyson' fighting, black and blue from being bitten and had been banned from taking my dog into the workplace (pub) after my dog bit one of the staff. If it moved he tried to sh*g it (including me ). All I can say from personal experience was that John was unbelieveable - he had my dog working with him in 5 minutes - off lead and my dog was choosing to work with him! I attended a number of his training and behaviour workshops after that and remain impressed. John used to support dominance theory - but that was 10yrs+ ago so I imagine that he doesn't anymore - but his ability to get the best out of a dog is just amazing so I bow down in wonder at this man's practical ability with dogs Val Strong, who is one of the course leaders for COAPE, actually sat in on my behaviour consult with John Rogerson as she was one of his behaviour students back then (I believe she was just launching Support Dogs or something similar at that stage). He runs alot of courses in conjunction with the Dogs Trust, etc and I know that many of the charities have been sending their staff to his courses for years for behaviour training which must count for something! He is very well known in behaviour/training circles - particularly working trials - and, was actually a founding member of the Association for Pet Behaviour Counsellors. What I am trying to say, rather than trying to make a blatant advert for John Rogerson, is that there are other credible courses out there that can be of use to VNs and which don't cost as much money so may be a good way to get a feel for behaviour/training. I say both as I don't feel that there is a clear cut distinction (despite the opinions of may behaviourists - often veterinary!) - I am very cynical of 'behaviourists' that cannot train an animal - learning theory is learning theory, hedonic budgets, motivation, breed/diet issues, etc all apply whether applied to a behavioural issue or a recall so being able to train an animal is a good start in getting a feel for how animals tick, understanding why a particular technique is not working/would not work for this animal, etc. I remember once taking part in a clicker training workshop with one of the very wellknown behaviour people and I had to get up and clicker train my dog to do a down. Dogs can lie down in three ways 1) sit then down 2) playbow then down or 3) straight down. The playbow behaviour was offered first in my dog (he was used to clicker training and offering new behaviours) so I choose to reinforce that. The behaviourist made a point of telling the audience how this was a classic example of mis-timing on my part (what the f*ck????) and lead to slower learning. My dog lay down (from the playbow) as she was telling the audience this and was duly rewarded! What I am trying to say here is that learning to train animals gives up a good idea of the capacities/options open to the dog/likely behaviours that will be offered which will much enhance your behavioural toolkit. So I vote for VNs interested in behaviour to also find courses that include training (even just go and watch various dog training classes) and get a feel for how the dogs behave, how they do the behaviour and when they do it.

In terms of degree courses, I am on dogy ground speculating as there could be a conflict of interest. I work/study for the organisation that runs the most oversubscribed behaviour MSC in the UK (we have about 200 applicants for circa 24 places) so if I speculate too much either about our course or others I could be accused of being partisan/biased. I will make some general comments later when I have more time.

Apologies for any rambling. I think I have gone off track here somewhat and now I need to leave and get on with some 'real work'. Chicken behaviour!

Re: Behaviour

Jenny T — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:11:49 GMT

Just to set the record straight re the COAPE diploma

The course is so highly recommended by the people who take it because it is so comprehensive. Furthermore, once qualified you still have COAPE support eg via it's behaviour forum.

Re: Behaviour

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:14:47 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

that looked pretty doog?

[/quote]

GOOD not doog. Damn brain

[/quote]

hehe!! I wondered about the word Missvetnurse

Re: Behaviour

Claire Cameron — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:01:51 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

that looked pretty doog?

[/quote]

GOOD not doog. Damn brain

Re: Behaviour

Claire Cameron — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:01:28 GMT

Has anyone heard of compass education and training? I saw they were advertising an advanced diploma in canine behaviour management that looked pretty doog?

Re: Behaviour

Kathryn Welsh — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:19:32 GMT

I was actually after advice along the same line - I'm a qualified VN with the VN degree but i have keen interest in behaviour but don't know where to go with it. My practice is supportive and i would have their backing... Sparsholt do a part time degree in Applied animal behaviour or would i be better off doing something to do with COAPE.... help x x x

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:28:23 GMT

That's fair enough. Better to be safe than sorry. I can understand where you are coming from and I would also be wary of advising clients to go see X unless I either knew X personally and well enough to know that they knew their stuff or I recognised the course that they had undertaken as of good quality.

I just don't want nurses thinking that the only behaviour courses worth going on are APDT, the Southhampton course and COAPE. I know that isn't what your post said but it could be taken in that way by would-be behaviourists/dog trainers. There are lots of good courses or books that interested people can attend/read before deciding whether they want to part with a not inconsiderable amount of cash. As I said before, my main reservation with COAPE is that it only seems to give you 8 days of actual contact time/tuition and I really debate whether 8 days is enough/worth £4000. I think, from their website, that the actual content looks excellent/relevant, etc & I don't doubt the quality of the teaching staff, but it is difficult to work out from their website at what level the course is pitched (it refers to the open college network, calls the course - advanced certification - but I couldn't identify from this which level this linked with - further/higher yrs 1, 2, 3, or postgrad). It also refers to it being worth 39 credits. Assuming this is in line with the higher education credits system in terms of time allocation this means this course is effectively worth 1/3 of a year at university (fulltime study) of which only 8 days are contact time and then only theory-based. I couldn't see any reference to any practical components or the requirement to undertake practical work in conjunction with this diploma. I am tired tonight though so maybe I am not looking effectively for the information!

The bottom line, like in any profession, is actual practical experience in conjunction with a body of knowledge is best. I suppose if I was looking for that elusive gold standard course that's what I'd want. Just like if I wanted my dog's anaesthetic monitored I wouldn't want somebody schooled in theory but with no practical experience or vice versa. So, if doing a theory-based academic course is going to be run alongside getting practice experience then great. Otherwise, I wouldn't have much respect for anybody rocking up with any behaviour qualification including the ones listed or my own!

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:19:49 GMT

Not unfair if someone can give very good reccomendations for behaviourists initals/courses l will look at reccomending them. But as of yet l have only heard of the 2 main ones l added the Southampton one after the nurse was recommended that by Sarah Heath.

Every man, woman, child and nurse is calling themselves behaviourists after doing any length course and l am not prepared to say to someone in something as specialised as behaviour oh go try.... unless l am happy that the course is up to standard that l am happy with ie the APBT and COAPE and SH Uni and not up to whatever fee is paid.

To my mind too much rides on a behavioursits shoulders to put animals at risk.

Re: Behaviour

Louise B — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:17:40 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

I know a nurse looking into it and to many are dodgy and not recognised the best is APBT then one by southampton uni but it is hard to get on (very popular) that and there is COAPE I tell people that if the behaviourists do not have one of those do not touch them with a barge pole, that is because there is so many out there but so few good ones.

[/quote]

I think it's a little unfair to say don't don't anybody else with a bargepole! The key problem seems to be that the industry is unregulated (which is changing) but there are some good courses out there outside of the ones mentioned. The best behaviour/training course I have ever done was actually an 'unregulated', totally not recognised in terms of academic qualifications, etc and was the cheapest course I have done but it has rivalled all other behaviour courses I have done since them (up to and including MSc level). In the companion animal behaviour exam for the Animal Behaviour MSc we had to identify causes of behavioural problems and write programs for putting the problems right - I got 99% for this exam and most of my response was based on what I had learnt on these courses and not what I learnt on my BVNA course, not my undergrad degree and not my MSc (all in behaviour). It was run by a dog trainer/behaviourist called John Rogerson and was brilliant. He gives alot of workshops to animal welfare charities and teaches alot overseas and I would 100% recommend his courses. www.johnrogerson.com

Everyone bangs on about the COAPE course but, when I looked at the website, they seemed to want about £4000 for 8 days contact time which I felt was excessive. I am not doubting the quality but, for £4000, I could do a full time masters in behaviour (which Lincoln Uni will be launching shortly in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling), or 1/4 of a fulltime undergrad degree.

When regulation comes in, many different courses will probably be validated. I believe that the aim is for the lowest acceptable level of qualification to be an undergraduate degree in a relevant topic so if you want to plan ahead it makes sense to more in this direction. You could also join the CABSTG wing of BSAVA and ask the current members for their opinions.

This link will give you more information about accreditation.

http://asab.nottingham.ac.uk/accred/cert.php

I don't know an awful lot more about it as I moved into farm animals and don't really do much in relation to companion animal behaviour now but this link may be useful to you.

The APDT course is for dog trainers isn't it?

Re: Behaviour

Elisha — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:05:22 GMT

Definitely recommend the COAPE course and second all that Jenny T said!!

Re: Behaviour

Caro Laithwaite VN — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:38:25 GMT