Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

SmegSlayer — Sun, 26 Jun 2011 12:13:22 GMT

I don't think anyone is right or wrong about refusing or agreeing to help with something like this. We all have our own opinions and view animal care through different eyes. I'm currently trying to convince a client to have her cat spayed even though she is pregnant, possibly by her brother. The client told me that to spay her while pregnant was cruel and I cannot disagree but I do not think she will get this cat spayed once the kittens are born. the cat will keep getting pregnant (although she has agreed to have the male neutered).

I have also had to monitor an anaesthetic to spay a bitch that was close to giving birth. She had come over to the UK from a rescue centre in Europe. Nobody else would help, as they felt it was wrong. I euthanased the pups when the uterus was removed and it was horrible because they were moving and had fur. I do not regret my decsion to help. Those pups would have been unlikely to have had anything close to the life they deserved. I felt bad about doing it but I know it was for the best. I was lucky in that my colleagues did not shun me or regard me as a black sheep, although they did ask me how I did it. When i went into work the next day nobody said anything to me about it and it was like it never happened.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Susan Jackson — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:52:25 GMT

[quote user="Susan Jackson"]

Can I just say compulsery microchipping for all pups and heavy fines on puppies not chipped and registered after a certain age!

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I meant heavy fines for the breeder and owners of puppies not the puppies themselves.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Susan Jackson — Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:50:58 GMT

Can I just say compulsery microchipping for all pups and heavy fines on puppies not chipped and registered after a certain age!

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:58:55 GMT

A few months into my VN career - I was fast forwarded!

At about 9 mths into my career, HN presented me with a broken pet greyhound - we were both in tears- but she made/helped me euthanase him

She was am awesone HN - showed me early on just how hard it can be....................

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

lorraine wiggins — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:28:55 GMT

i feel for u going through all that, and its a shame that u dont ave the support of ur fellow staff members. its hard enough but not to ave and support must feel worse. but i totally see ur point and where u are coming from.

i have two dogs and show my dogs and id happily pay for a license but whos gona manage it? and how? its these back street breeders that u need to stop coz these are the ones that breed the bitches till they are dry to make money and dont care wot happens to the pups. i also feel that rescue centers should be neutering all animals that come into there centers. i no it would be expensive for them but it could help stop some of the breeding. also a lot of centers wont rehome animals to some people. the rspca turned my mum and dad down for cats as they worked all day? and wot do cats do all day? my dad is at home at 3pm. so they had to wait till ones got dumped on us.

i hope u dont feel like it was ur fault tho, it just makes me so angry that some people are in it for a quick way of making money and then these poor dogs ave to be put to sleep coz no one wants them.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Caro Laithwaite VN — Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:02:46 GMT

Have done the euth as stated but usually l did it as Tony (the vet) pulled them out of the mother.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Leigh Hinsley RVN NCert(BDev) MBVNA — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 23:16:04 GMT

I'm so glad we can all discuss these things without feeling judged. I agree with the abortion statement also - and I horrify myself for saying it, but unborn unwanted puppies and kittens would take potential homes of fully grown dogs. During a recent trip to China, we speyed a bitch that was so far into a pregnancy that we had to euthanise the pups in the uterus just to be sure. It shook me, I'd never seen or done anything like this before. But if you thought UK rescure centres were bad - you haven't seen nothing like China. In the rural areas of China dogs either live on a chain protecting what little possessions their owners have or live a life on the streets risking RTA, fights, matings and often abduction for the Chinese cat/dog meat market. Thankfully this last risk is one that does not occur in this country thank God.

But I think it was then, during that operation, that I realised, this is a ticking time bomb, with the amount of irresponsible owners irresponsibly breeding their pets combined with the amount of people giving up their pets because they can't afford them anymore - its almost genocide proportions. I heard a statistic that 1 stray dog is pts every hour, I just fear this will increase to every 1/2 hour the way things are heading.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Vicky RVN — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:45:57 GMT

I wouldn't refuse to help. Like has been said, if you help you can make that animals last moments of life as nice as possible and give them some love. A life in a rescue centre is no life, if they can't be rehomed then they can't live in a kennel forever, it's not fair. I'm in total agreement with Caro in that stray preg cats/dogs should be aborted. There are enough needing homes already!

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Fuzzyduck — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:20:48 GMT

The problem is there are too many dogs and staffies in particular, no one wants them and 1000s sit in kennels for months/years eventually being PTS or dying in there. I am lucky in a way that i rarely have to assist with this because we send all our strays to a rehoming centre but this centre euthanaises the majority of the animals who do not find a home within a short time period, so i know that most animals i send are going to die but i dont take part in that event, i just hope that they are kind at the end.

Although it does sadden and anger me i feel at least they are getting one last chance at a home and if no home is found then they are not languishing in kennels until the bitter end.

We as nurses can only educate so much, i find all too commonly that people just dont listen, or feel that they know better and also am finding more commonly than ever that clients have no money and we are euthanaising a very large number of sick but treatable animals because the owners cannot afford treatment.

I do feel like animals should be licenced but then there are plenty of people who have too many children that they cant look after and dont bother about so i think its a losing battle.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Nicola Smith — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:17:26 GMT

Hi, just want to say I competely support you Leigh. I have and would continue to assist in euthanasia's as you outlined. No we dont enjoy it but imo oftne this is the only option. We would all prefer not to have to do this but in todays society this is a necessity and all we can do is ensure these animals are gven the care and respect they deserve. I think you acted in a completely responsible way. X

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Kim Buckley — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:24:09 GMT

I'm lucky in the fact that I have never been in this position but I would if needed. To me euthanasia is a lot kinder than putting a dog with into kennels where it will probably be for months and months and be going crazy. At the end of the day there just aren't enough homes and I think people are totally unrealistic when they think in the current situation that every dog can be saved. As others have said something needs to be done about it and not helping put animals to sleep isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference!

People need to be educated about responsible dog ownership and actually do some research before they go out and get a dog. How many times have you seen someone with a breed which is totally unsuitable for them? If people want to go out and buy a puppy from a decent breeder and they have researched and look after that dog correctly then why shouldn't they? I don't think people should be thought of negatively for not getting a rescue dog.

I really want a border terrier and when I am in a position to get one, I will go to an accredited breeder and get one. I have had negative comments about this before but why shouldn't I? I have absolutely nothing against mutts (got two myself) but I have fallen in love with a particular breed and I know that from it's breed traits it would be the perfect dog for me. I would not think twice about having a rescue dog as well but I don't think I should be frowned upon for not getting one.

The real people who should feel guilty in all of this is the backyard breeders who are just in it for the money and don't give a damn about what happens to the pups. They should be the ones made to hold them as they are put to sleep. Might make them think twice! I think compulsary microchipping and licensing should come in and quickish!

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 19:29:36 GMT

[quote user="katrina"]

So no one wants to do it but evreyone does it - I think that if we all stopped things would change. Of course its very difficult when a dog is not rehomable for some reason and it all very hard, kennels are no life.

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Actually no not everybody does it and thats why some of us who will are branded as being hard or unfeeling or worse because we will. When practices refuse what do they think ends up with these animals? where do they go? - sadly its the minority that end up in rescue centres, so what of the others? If we all stopped I feel the only thing that would change is that we would have even more dumped animals or animals meeting unspeakable ends. You are right if a dog is unhomeable kennels are no life - so in this situation what would be your answer to this problem?

I agree that nurses are in a good position to advise and offer support to owners and indeed educate owners but hands up how many of us are becoming wary in what information we offer these days in case it comes back to bite us because it doesnt conform with what x,y or z behaviourist has said in the last year, month, week - this area is becoming a minefield and dare I say it of our own making.

I am pleased that somebody has at least acknowledged there is stress attached to this - and those of us that will do it maybe that stress is added to with the condemnation of our colleagues who wont. Its a nasty business to be sure.

In the practice I work now we will do our utmost to rehome an animal and this has always been my primary objective anywhere I have worked but there are only so many homes out there. Sorry but this really gets me het up

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Susan Jackson — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:49:39 GMT

No you're not cold hearted, you said it yourself about just providing her with a bit of love for the last few minutes of her life. It was going to happen whether you assisted or not. Doing you job is not cold hearted. I would have done it as well and like you I would have been angry and sad.

I would consider it just being professional, I'm sure the Vet doing the deed does not want to be there either. Do we ever really think about them? Is it not better to assist and support another person you work with?

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:48:43 GMT

When l ran the rescue kennels l lost count of the amount of healthy adult dogs & puppies l pts and it was my decision not the vets, we didn't have one. I had a set number of kennels some small dogs l allowed 3/kennel others was 2. Reality stinks but there was no choice, l had people telling me to let them go free... to poison, rta, abuse, starvation what sort of life is that?

I am still called cruel as l say that stray cats and bitches pregnant should be aborted. One vet gave me a mouthful we had a big argument 2 weeks later same hypocritical cow was in and did caesarian on her cat as it was pregnant.

I feel like Germany should be exams & licenses for anyone that has more than 1 litter a year. All dogs should have a licence un-neutered should be VERY big neutered small. Microchip compulsory. And like los angeles compulsory neuter for any dog over 3mths old. Money goes to help the animal population dog/cat/ etc

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Katherine Spear — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:46:22 GMT

I dont assist with it, and my vets will make a huge effort with me to rehome/sort out the specific problem. I think pet breeding is the problem here, and you should not feel upset by assisting but work hard to encourage clients to neuter& not breed, and to help owners having difficulties with behaviour or whatever as much as possible-setting up adolescent nurse clinics can help. RSPCA reserach shows that nearly 20% of people who bought a puppy in the last two years gave it up for rehoming - thats a ridiculous amount of people thinking they can manage a dog and finding they cant-so eductaion is so important. the rspca have a puppy smart campaign. Vet nurses are perfectly placed to educate clients to help them make the right choices, eg not get a collie if you live in a flat, and to assist them when the have problems, eg cant control my dog on the lead, or whatever makes them give up their dog. Starting up adolescent clinics as routine in practice at like 4 months old gives owners a chance to discuss any problems they have and for them to rememebr to book in for neutering, so you could start that up in your practice if you want to be part of the solution to the massive social problem of unwanted dogs int the uk, it will be a long process but should improve eventually. Regarding the euthanasia you could read 'An introduction to veterinary ethics' by Rollin, its really good and deals with this issue a lot. Basically though he does argue that by agreeing to euthanaise a pet isnt the way to resolve this problem and goes into it all in really good detail and gives a lot to think about. He also goes into the moral stress that vets(and nurses) undergo in being asked to euthanise so might be useful to you. Also you could read an article by Yeates& Main in Veterinary Record called 'Veterinary opinions on refusing euthanasia' - i think its that one -that surveys vets and their views on euthanasing and is very interetsing as it shows how much convenience euthanasia goes on -against vets wishes. So no one wants to do it but evreyone does it - I think that if we all stopped things would change. Of course its very difficult when a dog is not rehomable for some reason and it all very hard, kennels are no life. I wish that everyone woudl get a rehomed dog instead of buying it - i have no exitement of seeing a client with a new puppy - I just wish theyd thought about adopting one isntead of buying one. If pet breeding wasnt so huge dogs in the kennels would get rehomed quicker.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Leigh Hinsley RVN NCert(BDev) MBVNA — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:25:10 GMT

Thanks girls. You've made me feel a lot better knowing I'm not the only one thinking it. And Sal - I believe they think I'm cold hearted too, but I like to think myself as a realist. I never ever want an innocent animal to suffer at human hands, but unfortunately, I think over breeding is causing a large degree of the suffering in the UK.

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Katie Mansfield — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:12:57 GMT

Sad as it is sometimes it has to be done. Sixteen months in kennels is no life.

I think you've been very strong managing to give that poor dog comfort and security in her last moments. Ignore the other staff at your practice - it's quite obvious you care, and you were the only one who cared enough to give her your best at the end.

K x

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Lucy-lu — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:38:23 GMT

You are not on your own! We refuse to do this. Don't feel guilty though, it's not your fault!

I am so angry at the amount of breeding that is still going on! We have more clients unable to afford caesarians, let alone the basic things such as vaccinating and parasite control, etc.... Then they try and and pass the issue on to saying how can you let them suffer, etc... Obviously we don't let the them suffer. Funnily enough though they forget to mention they are selling pups for about £200+ that they will pocket!!!! Roarrrrrr!

Re: Destroying healthy animals - am I alone?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:36:42 GMT

no you are not alone - I have been called a hard nosed bitch and worse by colleagues but the way I see it a dog that is passed from pillar to post from rescue home to rescue home or spends the majority of its life waiting in a kennels for somebody to come along and home it, then all you are doing is prolonging a miserable existance. Fair does there are animals that adapt well to rescue kennels and some find really good homes and equally there are large numbers of dogs languishing in various rescue centres that do not adapt. If they are 'lucky' they get some respite if an owner takes them on - only to be returned days, weeks or months down the line when the new owner finds they cannot deal with their problems. It makes me really angry but I do feel that yes sometimes euthanasia is the best end for some of these animals.

I dont enjoy taking part in these euthanasias but I wouldnt refuse to assist. Its part of my job, not a good part I will grant you and I do feel that those that do refuse are maybe not facing the realities of what our job entails.

I do feel that some animals are rehomed 'irresponsibly' - ie rehomed at any cost by some of the rescue centres because they are on 'death row' and whilst it is a well intentioned attempt to get them out before the fateful day but these are the ones that often come back, end up at another rescue centre or end up taking a trip to the vets with their new owners and are pts (which often puts people off rehoming another animal in the future in case they get another 'problem' animal) or worse they are just turned out on the street to fend for themselves.

I dont really know what the answer is - license to breed is a good idea but you would always get the back street accidental litter from owners pleading ignorance. I would like to see anybody who keeps an entire pet charged an annual fee for the priviledge that way it wouldnt penalise the responsible owners that have bothered to neuter. Maybe the money generated from this could be used not only for the rescue centres but also for funding more neutering schemes. Its ok raising money for the problem we have now with countless animals in rescue centres but we also need to be looking to the future and how the present situation can be eased and if more animals are neutered there will be fewer to rehome

If it helps i dont think you have anything to feel guilty about, you have facilitated a decent end for this dog. I am sorry your colleagues cannot accept that but maybe they need to come to terms with the responsibility to an animal that they are shirking?