untrained staff and nursing

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Phrin Vernon RVN — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:19:46 GMT

[quote user="Susan Jackson"]

So many different views. I agree that practices should try to take on qualifieds where possible but I think that non-qualifieds provide important help for the nurses. However I think if you have mixed then the qualifieds should concentrate on what they are qualified to do and the un-qualifieds assist with handling, cleaning, sterilisation, reception, stock control ....... I do think they shouldn't be allowed to do the QVN job but should be valued all the same.

I like the new training and training standards. They ensure that the nurses that pass do so to a certain level. What would the point be if qualifying was easy? I wouldn't value my qualification if it was easy, I worked hard, gave up loads and I'm proud of that! The other thing is how can you justify a RVN being accountable for their actions if they've not been trained properly. For those not qualified that have had training, you are only as good as the person who trained you, no offence but have you seen how some Vets bandage, monitor GA's, and some of the x-rays - where's the collimation? Hopefully you will have had QVN's teaching you.

I worked in loads of jobs before training to qualify so I know what it feels like to dread and hate going to work every day. I'm pleased with my wages now, but I will not leave nursing. I know I'll not enjoy doing anything else. I do think that some nurses get disheartened when they go straight in to nursing at young ages and after a while they leave the profession to try something else. Wages aren't good so there's nothing to keep them.

[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly

There is a place for both QVNs and auxilliarys in practice, and as has been said, many practices would crumble without their auxilliarys, BUT there needs to be a line drawn between what they can do, and what title they go by.

I too have worked in many places, and at one point had a VS as my assessor - arrghhh! Bless her, but she just couldn't train me to be a nurse properly..... purely because she wasn't a nurse. Yes she knew a lot more than me, and was an excellent vet, but nurses are not mini vets - we get trained to nurse, not to vet! They are different things.

I realise that not every practice can be fully staffed by QVNs, although some are, but would it be too much to ask to have at least 1 QVN in employ at every vets?

Should the new training system not make this easier? Please forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought you didn't have to be a training practice as such now, in order to employ RCVS enrolled SVNs? As long as you have the support of a neighbouring TP?

I may well be wrong though - I haven't checked before posting

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Susan Jackson — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:05:38 GMT

Re: untrained staff and nursing

thebeestingbutterfly — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:37:22 GMT

Also... NO i do not think that a practice would work without auxillary staff and i know that they make every day veterinary life much easier!

Re: untrained staff and nursing

thebeestingbutterfly — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:23:36 GMT

[quote user="Geniverger"]I would put a 20kg dog on a bain or a circle depending on the type of dog and surgery, or if it's overweight or not. As for 2L oxygen I agree that it's too low for a bain at that weight, but the part about 2% iso - for some patients that's all they need at that particular time to stay in the right plane of anaesthesia, and again depends on the surgery, patient metabolism, whether the procedure is coming to an end, any other considerations.[/quote]

Yes my point regarding the 2l o2 and the 2% iso is that, that is the "usual- can't be bothered that will do" anaesthetic mindset i see quite frequently. said patient actually required 4.5-6L o2 when calculated properly.

As i have also stated in previous posts- I know a few unqualified that have been better nurses than some qualifieds i have met... it is all relative and unfortunately not everyone is like you

It sounds like you have a great teacher and i'm glad you do things the right way

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:40:48 GMT

some of the refferal practices seem to forget that without the refferals from general practice and the qualified nursing staff again from general practice that they keep stealing they wouldnt have the work or the staff

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:08:41 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

so maybe they could pay an opt out fee for not training which could be used to help fund training in practices that do want to train?

[/quote]

Maybe so..............

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:07:14 GMT

so maybe they could pay an opt out fee for not training which could be used to help fund training in practices that do want to train?

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:00:48 GMT

The prob with referral practices is that some are so specialised that they don't do regular work with falls into the requirements for training. such a dentistry, dispensing of wormers/flea treatments, neutering, exotics species.....

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:55:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Another question - how many VNs who feel that only VNs should be nursing are happily working in practices that take no part in VN training? If you feel that strongly about it, shouldn't VNs be supporting training practices?

[/quote]

which is a point I have been making for years now both on this forum and the one before it. How many refferal centres and hospitals do you see with vacancies for qualfied staff but they have no interest/investment in training their own nurses - they would prefer another practice foot the bill for that and get a nurse who is already semi house trained rather than start from scratch.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:01:30 GMT

[quote user="Angiy Michael"]Please note anyone taking blood or giving medication via injection who is not an enrolled student nurse or not a registered or listed nurse IS breaking the law....[/quote]

Not strictly true - the rules are still very complicated and aren't currently covered in detail in the VS act.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:57:59 GMT

[quote user="Kim Blowing"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"] Another reason I am not happy with the degree training for nurses is that a student loan or funding needs to be found and on qualification these degree nurses wont start paying back that loan until their wage is sufficient for them to do so[/quote]

Good thing I pay mine back every month then isn't it unlike a hell of a lot of other graduates I know who have done degrees and are unable to find jobs at all let alone relating to what they studied!

[/quote]

thats what I meant - some arent lucky enough to have jobs and some dont earn enough to be paying it back and that isnt only in vet nursing!

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:53:28 GMT

I didn't say I think nurses should work FOC, I am just pointing out that training in most other professions involves a LOT of unpaid working (including becoming an RN) so in some ways VNs have it easier....!! (I have a degree nurse who does get paid, although I don't have to...!!!)

However, saying that 'at least you have an well paid job at the end' is irrelevant - many people do unpaid training who don't expect to get a highly paid job.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Angiy Michael — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:50:26 GMT

Please note anyone taking blood or giving medication via injection who is not an enrolled student nurse or not a registered or listed nurse IS breaking the law....I value people's experience but it does not replace formal training..and if I was a pet owner who found that the staff dealing with my pet were not qualified then I would be threatening legal action and make loud rabble against the practice .

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Kim Buckley — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:36:59 GMT

Good thing I pay mine back every month then isn't it unlike a hell of a lot of other graduates I know who have done degrees and are unable to find jobs at all let alone relating to what they studied!

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Juliet Drummond DAVN (med) RVN D32/33 — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:21:49 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"] Animal welfare is increasinglingly playing second fiddle to personal point scoring and politics.[/quote]

i have to say i agree with this.

i would also say that this discussion seems to be going around in circles, there is no way everyone will agree with each others opinions on 'unqualified' staff.

i stand by my earlier point of the vet ultimately being responsible for the sucessful outcome of the procedure e.g. anaesthetics.

hopefully when nurses are self regulated this may change, but i do think we are a long way off.

we need to stop feeling that we acheived our qualifications for nothing, and it does not matter how we got there (believe me we all have a tale to tell on this) the important thing is that we did acheive, what so many others can only dream of.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:52:06 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="niknoks"] it should be made easier for practices to be able to do it[/quote]

erm...cheaper?

How would you feel about nurses working FOC as fully registered students? That would offset the cost of training somewhat....

(And don't say that old chestnut about how you have to live........I did it for 5 years afterall! )

[/quote]

why does training have to be so expensive?

why cant we go back to a basic qualification that is mostly taught inhouse and is mostly nurses teaching nurses with the guidance of something as simple as the old green book?

I have heard the arguments on standardisation and accreditation etc and I personally dont believe they have any relevance, the old system did turn out some damn fine nurses at relatively little cost and little paperwork and minimum upset to the practice - which in turn encouraged more practices to train their nurses. We didnt need the added expense of A units and their exams or mentorship and the cost of putting somebody through that little bit of paper we just got on with it. We dont need to be teaching the ins and out of a ducks backside for nurses to qualify on a basic level - the practices are not benefitting from this, trainees are not benefitting from this as the training is now becoming over complicated the only people to benefit from this are the colleges and the people who are cooking up new stuff constantly to add to the qualification and make it harder to attain. I am not saying that people dont need to know aspects of our job but I am saying maybe these should be studied after a basic qualification has been passed as add ons an then the practice can decide what is relevant to them or not.

All this using human models of nursing - how many people have their been on here complaining about their experiences of human nursing staff - its not really working there so how can we expect it to work for us? We arent human nurses and the veterinary practice or hospital is not the same as a human one, for a start we dont have endless numbers of staff.

I have radically changed my opinion over the last few years - before this I used to try and make sure that every single member of nursing staff I met in practice was encouraged to train. ( I worked in practice for around 12 years before qualifying and I was convinced at the time that qualifying was the best direction to be going in to formalise my skills) Now as the training in my opinion is totally screwed well.......

Training doesnt have to the monster it has been allowed to turn into

And no I dont hold with nursing staff working FOC as fully registered students because the practice is not paying them for the work they have doing so there is less chance that the practice (some not all) will actually value that person and the work they are doing and there is less chance that they will stay and complete the course. Whilst I appreciate Gillian had to support herself for 5 years with respect nurse training isnt the same and at the end of the training there is only so much a nurse can hope to earn (which is far less than a qualified veterinary surgeon). So whilst a veterinary surgeon will start with nothing and may in time earn a pretty decent wage a nurse may start with nothing and may end up with a mediocre at best wage, If they are to have any chance of a semi decent life style they have to be earning from day one. Another reason I am not happy with the degree training for nurses is that a student loan or funding needs to be found and on qualification these degree nurses wont start paying back that loan until their wage is sufficient for them to do so. The latest wages survey put degree nurses as earning less than other qual nurses - so my guess is that very few of them will be earning sufficient to repay their student loan? In which case the practices have had free work out of them unless they were lucky enough to get a paid placement and the taxpayer has effectively funded them - as a taxpayer I am not happy with that situation.

Sorry for the rant but there has been so much said on here recently that I am really unhappy about. The job I came into all those years ago bears no resemblance to what it has turned into and I dont think many of those changes are for the better either. Animal welfare is increasinglingly playing second fiddle to personal point scoring and politics. I people have too high an expectation of what the job is - it has been turned into something it was never designed to be - tyhis is not what I came into the job for.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Catherine Goulding — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:14:48 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

I am sorry but if people are expecting this sort of wage in the average veterinary practice dream on.

[/quote]

Why shouldn't they if they are doing a very similar job?? There are RVNs in this country on 30k+ a year - but they stay where they are and don't broadcast their salaries

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Nikki Graef — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:14:42 GMT

Yeah you did it for 5 years and now earn a decent wage at the end of it, maybe if we knew we would earn a decent wage nurses would be more willing to work for free or very little money. Some are now, during my training, which was 11 years ago now but i earnt £40 a week which increased to £80 a week in my second year. When the trainees at work complain about being on minimum wage i point out how lucky they are!

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:07:45 GMT

[quote user="niknoks"] it should be made easier for practices to be able to do it[/quote]

erm...cheaper?

How would you feel about nurses working FOC as fully registered students? That would offset the cost of training somewhat....

(And don't say that old chestnut about how you have to live........I did it for 5 years afterall! )

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Nikki Graef — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:04:14 GMT

Dont get me wrong im not saying all unqualified nurses are useless, im sure some are better than some qualified nuses and my practice would fall apart without our auxillary nurses.

I think there should be more pressure on practices to train their staff through the RCVS scheme, it should be made easier for practices to be able to do it then there would be more qualified nurses. Im sure most unqualified nurses arnt unqualified because they cant be bothered to train.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sal the 1st — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:58:08 GMT

[quote user="diverdippy"]

A newly qualified ODP starts on a salary of 22Kand rises to 40K depending on their role.

[/quote]

which is funded by one of the largest employers in this country - the NHS which is not the average privately owned or even corporate veterinary practice, is not run as a business and is not dependant on making any kind of profit in order to be able to pay its staff. I am sorry but if people are expecting this sort of wage in the average veterinary practice dream on.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Tracey Louise — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:17:56 GMT

[quote user="icklesal"]

Well said Steph, its tiresome to read the same comments every few months.

[/quote]

Whilst it may be tiresome to read the same comments, there are new members on here every day, some of which may wish to have their say on this or many other subjects that have already been discussed by more experienced forum members.

Just because a subject has already been discussed, should not mean that newer members can't post a thread or feel that they can't talk about a subject.

I find it useful to hear different points of view.

Im a qualified nurse and have no problem with experienced unqualified staff undertaking most 'nursing' duities.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Liv — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 08:47:31 GMT

Its such a tricky subject!

Personally - im a qualified and do think its a tad frustrating for the qualifieds who have spent years training and kinda does seem like whats the point in spending so long if anyone can do the same job?

But on the other hand Im sure there are many unqualifieds that have been working in practice longer than some qualifieds who may have better knowledge of some things/skills possibly.

I think its a case of the public not really being informed about veterinary nurses and what qualifications they need etc, because if you told a client a fully trained member of staff will be doing your pets GA- im sure they'd be perfectly happy with someone whos 'fully trained'. Not knowing that there is a recognised qualifcation for it.

Whereas Im sure people would be less happy if they went into hospital and had an unqualified human nurse looking after them, giving meds etc. Or if they knew their vet wasnt a qualified VS, but one whos 'fully trained?!'

If we were more recognised as a profession i think things may be different!

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Sally Seddon — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 08:19:31 GMT

[quote user="Steph Phillips"]

We can go round and round in circles on this subject.. as we have done many times in many threads.. !!

[/quote]

Well said Steph, its tiresome to read the same comments every few months.

Re: untrained staff and nursing

Steph Phillips — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 08:07:28 GMT

[quote user="niknoks"]I locummed in a practice several years ago where there were few qualified nurses and many unqualified members of staff, a routine cat castrate died during surgery as the 'nurse' hadnt noticed the cat had stopped breathing. Now im not saying it wouldnt have died anyway but at least had she have noticed something was wrong there could have been a chance of saving it.[/quote]

That does not mean that EVERY unqualified member of staff is that incompetent!!! Hope your not tarnishing us all with the same brush..

I can understand the frustration for the qualified nurses though... but as I've said, It's what I've always known in my practice as it's what I've been taught.. should I ever leave that practice and go to another one, it would be a very different story maybe! But in the meantime I'm doing my job and I'm bloody good at it

We can go round and round in circles on this subject.. as we have done many times in many threads.. !!