Overconfident VN

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:01:25 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I thought the same - I just couldn't envisage this situation happening. Too odd.

I have however worked with vets who need the nurses to dig them out of bad situations they have gotten themselves into, compromising the nurse in the process. Just a thought, but maybe the vet is finding out if they told the nurse to carry out tasks which they found later they shouldn't have done.....???

[/quote]

that could be a possibility - I have known it happen before

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:48:36 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

Regarding the PENTAbarb (oops!) I was just always told to draw it up immediately before injection, maybe I was taught this by some hyper worried vet many moons ago and I have just kept it with me, wrongly!!

[/quote]

wonder if the vet meant paraldehyde - that starts attacking the syringe as soon as it comes into contact - we used to use the glass syringes and record needles

or maybe the vet just didnt like having a syringe of something lethal sitting around where it might get used by mistake ( which is a very reasonable concern)

btw I found out about the syringes by accident - we had a couple of loaded syringes in the LA bag for a horse euthanasia and they got left in there. I noticed the 3 part was very stiff when i tried to squirt the blue juice back in the bottle the next day and commented when the vet saw me struggling with it and was told it attacks the rubber. (As an experiment the 2 part syringe was non sticky after 24hrs but jammed up after 48 )

Re: Overconfident VN

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:47:40 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

[quote user="Phrin Vernon"]

And, it's been bothering me since I read the opening post - the vet had to go away to get the pentobarb, but by the time she came back the VN had euth'd the dog - presumably with pentobarb? Ummm?

[/quote]

sorry not being picky but I thought it was a cat?

[/quote]

My typo - I think it was a cat too!

Cat, Dog, doesn't matter really

OP is in a really difficult situation - whether the vets side of things is right or not... something doesnt ring true, and if i knew the practice I wouldn't take my pet there based on what has been said.

I tend to base practices / vets on - would i take my pet there?

Maybe the OP should suggest the vet rings Vetlife for a confidential sounding off, with constructive advice? Or maybe the OP should ring Vetlife?

Samaritans for Vets - http://www.vetlife.org.uk/

Re: Overconfident VN

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:47:26 GMT

I thought the same - I just couldn't envisage this situation happening. Too odd.

Re: Overconfident VN

salliee5 — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:44:39 GMT

As I said I don't know either of them, just worked with the vet on that day when she told me this. They have been working together for just two weeks so maybe it will get sorted out in its own time.

What I meant (sorry if it wasn't clear) when I said 'the vet is old enough and brave enough' was that this was not what I wanted the point of the thread to be, I, as many of you must think too, believe that the right thing is that the vet stands on her own two feet, right?Well she obviously hasn't been brave enough to do so, she is intimidated by the age difference I think she said,

My concern was that it had been confided in me and I am walking away.

I don't think picking holes in the events is what I wanted to happen! Maybe NONE of it happened and it was all a ploy to get attention? Who knows? But if it did, and still does, then I hope it gets sorted out soon but it will be without my direct help!

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:35:53 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

'Can you tell me what VN's are actually allowed to do?' (she is not from the UK), after further questioning it turns out that the VN she works with is a lot older than her and way too confident, the VN undermines this vet all the time. The vet is old enough and brave enough to fight her own battles so this is not the point.

[/quote]

Having read and re read this it just doesnt add up - if she is capable of fighting her own battles then I am surprised this situation arose and if the nurse is constantly undermining the vet I am surprised it hasnt been dealt with sooner?

Re: Overconfident VN

salliee5 — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:26:37 GMT

Yes I agree with everyone, that was really my intention in the original post, as I said I was not there and this is just one side, but IT STILL is one side! I just didn't want it to happen that someone confided this with me and for me just to ignore it.

But on the other hand I am by no means a nosey parker, sticking my oar in where it is not wanted or possibly even needed. I do however disagree that purely because it is a one sided story that therefore that means I should step back.

I feel I should step back as it will cause more trouble than it is worth!!

But you know what, without this thread and everyones informed and differing opinions, I might have just gone in head first and created trouble where it is not wanted!!

Sal, it was a cat!

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:15:57 GMT

[quote user="Phrin Vernon"]

And, it's been bothering me since I read the opening post - the vet had to go away to get the pentobarb, but by the time she came back the VN had euth'd the dog - presumably with pentobarb? Ummm?

[/quote]

sorry not being picky but I thought it was a cat?

The more I read this thread the more I am inclined to agree with Gillian in that there may be more to this story than meets the eye

Pentobarb - yes I had heard if left for a long time it goes sticky in the syringe - but do you know how long it takes to do this? 3 part syringes we are talking over 24hrs 2 part syringes more than 2 days.

Re: Overconfident VN

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:05:00 GMT

I suppose what I was getting at was that the whole situation seems a bit dodgy. I wouldn't be rushing to believe the account of one indivdual vet, who the OP has no detailed knowledge of, when this vet may turn out not to be telling the absolute truth....

Re: Overconfident VN

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="salliee5"]I was always taught never to draw up phenobarbital in advance as it goes sticky in the syringe[/quote]

erm....pentobarbital???

I doubt that it would take anyone so long to catheterise something that getting the drug ready beforehand would cause any such issue.....

[/quote]

With all due respect Gillian, that isn't the point.

Sorry - that reads a bit arsey - not my intention! :)

So the vet wasn't fully prepared, happens to us all! But what the VN did in that situation was bang out of order.

And, it's been bothering me since I read the opening post - the vet had to go away to get the pentobarb, but by the time she came back the VN had euth'd the dog - presumably with pentobarb? Ummm?

Re: Overconfident VN

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:32:30 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]I was always taught never to draw up phenobarbital in advance as it goes sticky in the syringe[/quote]

erm....pentobarbital???

I doubt that it would take anyone so long to catheterise something that getting the drug ready beforehand would cause any such issue.....

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:32:27 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

it is still not acceptable to gas a cat without the vet right?

[/quote]

which is exactly the point I raised with the BBC on something they showed late last year - but thats a whole new story and I wont hijack this thread to tell it.

Re: Overconfident VN

salliee5 — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:44:25 GMT

Thanks for the Devil's Advocacy!!!

I agree I am not going to get involved, however that doesn't sit right with me, but I shall just have to lump it!

I do think it is acceptable though to put a catheter in a cat before drawing up the drugs, I was always taught never to draw up phenobarbital in advance as it goes sticky in the syringe but maybe that is not correct. And surely the nurse should have said 'I have it here'?

I would presume the vet was contactable, but even if not, it is still not acceptable to gas a cat without the vet right?

Anyway regardless, I am not here to defend or belittle anyone or any practice that I have not been involved in!! I am keeping my nose well and truely out!!

Re: Overconfident VN

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:22:00 GMT

Just playing devil's advocate.....

1. I find it odd that a vet would start a euthanasia without knowing they had the drugs to hand first. Thus disappearing to get the meds seems odd to me. Particularly as they WERE there all along. hmm....more to this story???

2. [quote user="salliee5"]the vet went out for lunch[/quote]

was the vet contactable? Did the nurse attempt to contact the vet?

[quote user="salliee5"]Anyway the fact is, I locum, I do not work there or know the nurse involved or the vet to be honest[/quote]

In which case you shouldn't get involved. At all.

Re: Overconfident VN

salliee5 — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:27:46 GMT

Hi Susan,

Thanks for the reply, yeah I am well aware of the VN rules and vets having responsibility, DD key etc and did relay all this to the vet. Regarding the DD cupboard being locked, I have no idea what they do, as I have never worked in that pracice, let alone even been there hence my problem!

My main query was what level of involvement I should get into. But I think next time I work at the branch, I will just call up this vet and persuade her to do something about it as it was obviously weighing heavy on her mind naturally!! (and mine!)

Re: Overconfident VN

Susan Jackson — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:04:06 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

The point is, the two examples of things this VN did (apparently!).

1. During a euthanasia the vet decided to put a cathether in, then she went to get the euth drug, on her return the cat was dead and the VN had already drawn up the drug, but never said to the vet and had administered it herself without asking the vet??

[/quote]

Would also be a good idea that the DD cupboard is locked. Vets are primary responsible for the drugs in DD cupboards.

Re: Overconfident VN

Susan Jackson — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:59:48 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

I did check the VN list and she is listed but not registered. I think that it would be wrong to call the practice principals on behalf of the vet to make a complaint about a girl I don't know. I think that would have ramifications on the vet as well.

[/quote]

If she's a VN then the Vet is directly responsible for what she does. If he or she doesn't voice concerns to the practice principle then they're the ones that will be in the firing line. If the Vet voices concerns to the practice principles and they don't do anything then the Vet will not be at fault.

I still think its worth the Vet actually sitting down with the nurse and saying, i don't want you to do ....... with out me giving permission. That way if there is any trouble ahead, the Vet can say they had this discussion. Just stops the Vet getting in trouble for someone out of their control.

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:34:32 GMT

[quote user="salliee5"]

And yep, locumming certainly does open your eyes!!

[/quote]

sure does! I still remember being told by a trainee ANA who had been in the job no more than a couple of months and had only just completed the first part of her correspondence course how I should hold a cat so she could take a jugular blood sample - and when I declined was then confronted by a screaming vet. Now whatever they want to get up to that doesnt involve me - well let them get on with it - they obviously had a system that worked for them and they were happy with, the not quite ANA may have been the best person at getting veins in the whole practice(which was quite possible from what I saw), she may have been fantastically trained and got the knack of it really quickly? - but I really wasnt happy with the situation

I suppose it all boils down really to what the practice or the vet finds acceptable and there is always the possibility that what is happening with this nurse is acceptable to the powers that be? - but that doesnt make it right especially if an animal is put at risk as a result. I agree that speaking out yourself may cause further problems for the vet and she should be encouraged to make her own complaint. Besides that getting embroiled in this yourself may not be a good idea.

Re: Overconfident VN

salliee5 — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:34:34 GMT

Thanks guys for all your help - as always!

Yep I am in agreement that we will all be in agreement (!) that it is horrific what she has done. BUT I didn't see it, only heard about it from a vet I don't know really well.

I probably will get in touch with this vet again, I do sporadically work for this chain of vets ad hoc, I should be able to contact her, and try and persuade her to step up to the mark. I think if she does that then she might feel more comfortable telling her to back off regarding being over opinionated etc.

And yep, locumming certainly does open your eyes!!

Thanks Guys!

Re: Overconfident VN

Celine — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:07:29 GMT

I think we'd all be in agreement that this is entirely unacceptable, I absolutely am.

One of the problems here though is that the vet in question is obviously not the VN's boss - just a fellow employee (albeit with clinical seniority). Therefore she can't discipline the VN directly.

Ideally the issue needs to be raised with the practice principals but if you yourself let them know about it then you are going to have a potentially great impact on the VS's job (and quality of life while she's at work!!) without her consent.

I'm not saying don't do it, just pointing out that there'll be ramifications, but not for you (but you knew that already given that you posted on here ) I truely sympathise, you do see so many crazy things while locuming and it is hard to decide when to act. However given that you're still stewing over it then I'd say you need to do something.

Bear in mind though that you may not be able to approach a practice manager etc with only the info you have - it could be construed as hearsay (given that you never witnessed the incidents)

Is there any chance the VS would change her mind about reporting it if you spoke to her again? Good luck!

Re: Overconfident VN

Sal the 1st — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:02 GMT

are we talking VN or RVN here - RVN then let the RCVS deal with it VN let her boss deal with it and if her boss doesnt it is sure to come back and bite them soon enough - this is not right

Re: Overconfident VN

Louise Dick — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:44:29 GMT

This is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

What that VN did is not only illegal but imagine the ramifications of her actions with both the vet and the practice had anything gone wrong when she gassed the cat down again without the vets consent/supervision.

Sometimes people have ideas WAY above their station and become, as you say, too overconfident in their own abilities. If I were that vet i would be thouroughly peed off - it must be very undermining to have someone constantly pointing out 'flaws' in your work and second-guessing you. At the end of the day it is her job to support and assist the vet in their job - I am not saying blindly follow when you can see that something is not right, but there is a way to approach a situation without undermining and embarrasing your superior. For instance, in the cat situation, a comment like "there's a little bit of the cord still hanging out, is that okay" (even if you know it's not) allows you to air your concerns while still being respectful and courteous. Going ahead and fixing it yourself or even worse, euthanising an animal without waiting on the vet (in this situation), is completely beyond the realm of responsibility in my opinion.

I get the feeling this VN is very head strong and perhaps needs the vet to remind her who is the boss and where her dutied begin (and end).

Louise

Re: Overconfident VN

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:02:30 GMT

OMG!!!!!!!!

What that VN has done is illegal - administering POM's without vets express consent, and generally overstepping the mark!

The VN needs reporting IMO - but I don't know if I would be brave enough to do it! Perhaps an anon call to the RCVS might be in order to find out the best next move? Or the BVNA helpline?