New cat behaviour help.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 13:34:08 GMT

[quote user="Fuzzyduck"]

Thanks, they are getting on a bit better now, still some fighting but looks more like play fighting now, and less screaming on her part!

The other half who didnt want another cat said they had a week to stop fighting else we had to get rid of her, as were in a flat and the neighbours were complaining about the noise coming from her!! So ive stopped, shutting her away when were out and at night, i just leave them both together to do what they want.

Im also encouraging them to play together, which they are doing now so fingers crossed they will carry on improving.

[/quote]

That's brilliant news!!! Great to hear! got any photos of them??

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Fuzzyduck — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 12:43:09 GMT

Thanks, they are getting on a bit better now, still some fighting but looks more like play fighting now, and less screaming on her part!

Im also encouraging them to play together, which they are doing now so fingers crossed they will carry on improving.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:28:21 GMT

bit of food for thought.... 20 mins ago these two were snarling and hissing all over the house playing chase and bite. fur flew and claws were out and now look at them!! lol

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:26:24 GMT

[quote user="Fuzzyduck"]

Hey guys and thanks for all the replies.

She isnt neutered yet and isnt showing signs of being in season yet but it is a possibility that she could be coming in to season soon, she looks a little too young to me to be over 6 months but its possible. I am planning on having her speyed but thought it would be too much to go from vet clinic, vaccines, new home, new cat and spey all in one go so was trying to hold off a month or so until shes more settled.

[/quote]

It's quite possible she's starting to come into season. many cats come into season before 5mths there have even been reports of some coming into call younger! Her behaviour alone could be down to her hormones and having her spayed may change the whole meet and greet for her and him. queens will sometimes encourage rough play and even shout at the males to tell them what to do! even if they've never done it and even if they are neutered males. please try not to assume that growling and hissing and shouting is always going to be negative. felines are very vocal and social animals and use all sorts of vocal cues. if you're worried about the cats keeping you up at night time, erm not being funny or anything but you might wanna get over that. having two cats in a home they are bound to keep you up in the night or wake you nice and early in the mornin!! I get a regular 4am wake up call with mine :)

I personally would try the crate in the lounge in the evenings and then open the door as much as you can. try your best to ignore the shouting though as it can be easily mis interpreted. if it's getting to be too much do something to distract like make a loud noise in an adjoining room or drop a book on the floor or something. but try not to get involved if you can.

Have you used feliway before? I would wait to use feliway once they are more settled and in a good routine. Try Zylkene first and get everyone settled and happy. If you use Feliway whilst there still may be some negative or uncomfortable times for them they may then associate the Feliway with these feelings which won't do you any good! Get a regular routine going with some Zylkene 2 SID for a week and then 1 SID for two weeks and then try the Feliway once all has calmed a bit. :) Hope this helps.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Fuzzyduck — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:56:33 GMT

Hey guys and thanks for all the replies.

I am willing to consider rehoming if things dont work out, obviously i dont want to get rid of her as she is lovely and we get sooo many unwanted cats in work but if this carries on i cant keep her as its not fair on my other cat.

I will definately try and get some video footage for you to look at and see what you think, my behaviour knowledge is basic, i have been reading a bit trying to work out what to do and make sure i was doing everything right but im no expert so perhaps i am reading things wrong.

I am leaving them to work things out themselves as much as i can but she really does scream loudly especially if he jumps on her and shes constantly growling and hissing at him if he is facing her as though to play, im sure she must feel threatened by him as he is much bigger than her but she doesnt seem fearful after as soon as he walks away shes back chasing him again.

I shut her away at night and while we are out as i want to give him a break from her on one side but on the other once they start they do not stop until i break it up and put her in her crate. Im worried to leave them at it for too long as i dont want to make things worse! Also if i left them too it overnight we would get no sleep at all as her screeching is so loud!

I will definately try to get them to play together, they have heaps of toys and both play on their own so hopefully that wont be too difficult.

I wonder whether instead of confining her to the spare room while we are out/overnight putting her in a larger crate in the lounge where they can always see each other would help?

Ill try feliway also.

Thanks again guys, really good advice, will get some video footage as soon as i can

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Sal the 1st — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 01:05:02 GMT

if it helps at all my two adult neutered males took a few months to settle down and are now the best of buddies or partners in crime which ever way you look at it. I had horrendous problems with the pair of them at first but I did find that feliway diffuser made a huge difference, for the first little while I thought it was a waste of money but definitely noticed a difference when the refill ran out so perservered with it and I would say it had a good affect.

Morris was the newbie and Jasper had already lived with me a couple of years - we had recently lost Luci my old cat. Jasper is pretty playful (tormenting little git) and used to plague the life out of the old cat until she put him in his place and I feel his nose was out of joint as he now had somebody at least as big as him and has fast as him as an opponent.

the first time they played together was purely accidental ( they were only together in the early days when they were supervised) - I had a crystal hanging in the window and the reflected light was shining on a wall(s) and they both had the same idea - I expected blood and injuries but they both were too interested in the reflections - allbeit on different walls to start with.

Morris is still very food aggressive and I have to be careful at mealtimes but the rest of the time they get on fine and they have now lived together for 3yearsish

I found it helped a lot if the cat that was feeling threatened had somewhere to go that it could feel safe - but then it wasnt always the same cat that retreated. I hope this works out for everybody sorry I have nothing more constructive to offer

btw both of mine are basically indoor cats (except when Morris gets the urge to go bunny hunting)

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:14:54 GMT

this is pretty good info too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat

talks about how they are solitary hunters in some groups but are generally very social! i believe they are independent but not necessarily solitary.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:12:56 GMT

some food for thought.

THE UNSOCIABLE CAT - ARE CATS REALLY UNSOCIABLE?
Copyright 1994, 2001, Sarah Hartwell

Are cats really as unsociable as we think? Studies over the last thirty years suggest that cats develop complex and fluid matriarchal hierarchies and that they have preferred buddies

For years, 'experts' have told cat owners that domestic cats are solitary creatures who dislike the company of other cats. No doubt cat owners have viewed the communal sleep heap on the armchair with puzzlement, wondering whether it is the cats or the experts who have their facts wrong. Mostly it seems that the 'experts' are judging feline sociability by comparing them to dogs. The separate article Are Dogs More Faithful Than Cats compares some aspects of feline and canine behaviour. Despite increasing evidence to the contrary, many members of the scientific community still stereotype cats as non-social purely on the grounds that they do not form dog-like packs.

As a result, cats are frequently labelled "standoffish", "solitary", "asocial" or "unsociable" suggesting that they just don't like company. This supposed aloofness appeals to some people, but not to others - leading people to be classed as either "cat people" or "dog people". In return, dogs are often viewed as mindlessly obedient and subservient to their pack leader - to the point of being loyalty to a cruel owner (see Are Dogs More Faithful Than Cats for a disturbing example of this). Feline "aloofness" can create or contribute to anti-cat feeling. This misunderstanding of feline behaviour and persists into modern western society - a recent film called "Cats & Dogs" does cats a great injustice by depicting them as devious and villainous.

THE THREE SOCIAL FELIDS - LIONS, CHEETAHS AND DOMESTIC CATS

Scientist long considered the lion to be the only truly social cat. This is because lions form easily recognised prides which superficially resemble the familiar pack behaviour of dogs. Lion prides are harems of related females and their cubs, ruled over by a single male or two or more brothers. The resident males fight intruding males to keep their territory and harems and may be deposed. Male offspring are driven away when they reach maturity. The females generally remain in the territory. Intruding females risk being killed by a territory's resident females. Communal cub-rearing increases the cubs' chances of survival while communal hunting allows the lionesses to bring down prey larger than themselves.

More recently the cheetah has been recognised as being a social creature. Cheetah brothers form alliances with each other and may take solitary females hostage until she is receptive to being mated. All of the brothers will mate with her over a period of days. Male cheetah siblings have been seen to rest and to hunt together. Until recently this was viewed as juvenile behaviour persisting into adulthood and was thought to be a behavioural aberration. However, cheetah alliances have been seen often enough that this is known to be a normal behaviour.

Only in the last few decades have domestic cats been recognised as social animals (at least by scientists). Previously they were seen as little more than multicoloured, tame versions of their solitary African wildcat ancestors. While the ancestors of our domestic cats may have been solitary hunters in the forests of Europe and Africa, domestic cats frequently live in harmonious groups; playing, sleeping and even hunting together. Many form close attachments to other cats and even to other domestic animals.

WHAT IS A SOCIAL SPECIES?

A social species is defined as one which forms "stable relationships". This sort of relationship is frequently seen in feral colonies and in households. Some argue that cats in these situations are displaying unnatural social behaviour due to their enforced proximity to each other, e.g. feral cats attracted to a food supply. Others argue that neutering turns an solitary creature into a sociable creature. However, clear social behaviour is observed including communal rearing of kittens by some females and co-operative hunting. Communal kitten rearing is also seen among household domestic cats.

It has been suggested that keeping several cats in one household forced them to become more sociable due to the unnatural conditions. Certainly, some cats are solitary by nature (just as some humans prefer their own company) and show signs of stress when there are too many cats in a too-small area. Other cats simply tolerate their fellow lodgers and work individual territories within the household. A good domestic cats actually thrive on feline companionship though they do like to be able to retreat to a private area at times (just as humans need moments of solitude).

Back in the 1970s, studies viewed colonies of cats as no more than individuals drawn to a common food supply and tolerating others in the same general area. The attraction of food outweighed the cats' instinct to drive other cats away. Though it seemed that the colony as a whole was territorial rather than any individual cat, interactions between individual colony members were subtle and easy to miss. The absence of dog-like social behaviour told the world that cats were unsociable creatures. Owners disputed this finding, but to no avail.

Contradicting these views is the fact that related females in colonies may be so closely bonded that they will den together when giving birth, will act as midwife to each other and will nurse each other's kittens and show little or no favouritism towards kittens. The hungry kittens would simply feed off of the most available female. Cat owners and cat breeders have also observed this behaviour. In addition, the mothers were seen to join forces to drive off intruders including marauding tomcats which might have killed the kittens in order to bring the females back into oestrus (sexual receptiveness).

The increased popularity of cats as pets led to an increased interest in their behaviour ... and into a whole new branch of companion animal studies - that of the Pet Behaviourist (the "Pet Shrink"). In the thirty years since those early studies, observation of feral colonies and multi-cat households has shown that domestic cats, like lions, are rather sociable creatures and even battle-scarred tomcats will return from walking alone to relax with the family.

RUBBING HIERARCHIES AND BUDDY SYSTEMS

Cats in captive colonies at animal shelters, often form close friendships which last for many years. Eagle shared an enclosure with 11 other 'unhomeable' cats. The other cats frequently rubbed against Eagle and chose to sit close to him. When Eagle died, the relationship between the other cats broke down and the colony fragmented into several small groups. The super-sociable Eagle had been the glue that held them together.

Cats rub against their companions to mingle their scents and reinforce the bond. Biologists studying farmyard colonies noticed that lower ranking cats often rubbed against higher ranking cats. Rubbing also has a hierarchical function and a cat's social standing can be measured by the number of times other cats rub against it. When our cats wind round our ankles it is more than an affectionate greeting; they are letting us know that we rank higher than them. Maybe it's time to worry when Puss DOESN't rub round our ankles.

As well as the "rubbing hierarchy", later studies showed that some cats consistently choose to rest in close proximity to certain other individuals, but not close to certain others. Cat social structure was observed to be matriarchal, a little like a lion pride. Related females were more likely to socialise with each other than are unrelated females. Neutering has removed some of the distinction between male and female, with neutered males being happy to rest together. In a household, two unrelated cats who have lived together since kittenhood can be viewed as "related". Cats favour members of their own family - either their natural family (in a wild situation) or their adopted family (in a household).

This favouritism actually makes sense in terms of survival. Related cats share many genes. In the theory of the selfish gene, favouring closely related individuals ensures that at least some of your own genes survive and get passed along even if it is via a relative rather than your own offspring. I have seen a number of cases where a mother and daughter have reared later litters communally.

Rubbing, nose-bumping greetings and sitting close to other members of the cat's 'family' are not actions caused by keeping cats in 'unnatural proximity' to other cats. All of these activities have been observed among cats living in feral colonies. Behaviourists studying both urban and rural colonies found that the cats formed 'family groups' rather than remaining solitary. It is easy to dismiss this as several cats exploiting a single food source, but the amount of mutual grooming and even communal kitten-rearing suggest that these colonies are more like prides of lions. Communal hunting is only rarely observed since, unlike lions, cats hunt prey smaller than themselves.

Originally it was thought that female cats were sociable with related females, but not with related males. Studies of suburban cats disproved this. Females are equally sociable with their male relatives. Among unneutered males there is the problem of territoriality and competitiveness, though neutered males are often as sociable as females. Even this is not a hard and fast rule as I have found unneutered related tomcats (siblings or those raised together from kittenhood) to form alliances which persist into adulthood (though I have also seen these alliances break down permanently due to stress factors such as competition over females or food).

Hours of observation by researchers showed that cats have preferred "buddies". In neutered colonies, the feline buddy system is not restricted to closely related cats and there seem to be no gender preferences. In household cats, the buddy system is such that cats might "pop in" to visit buddies in neighbouring houses and some will even wait for a feline friend to be allowed out to play. A few owners report that their cats positively encourage neighbouring cats to visit and seem to think "the more the merrier".

SURVIVAL OF THE FRIENDLIEST

Cats have evolved during their long association with humans. Only those cats which tolerated human company went on to rear kittens in close proximity to humans. Living close to humans means living close to other cats as well. Over hundred of generations, those cats best suited to living in feline colonies have reproduced most successfully. Our present day domestic cats are descended from these socialised cats. Feral cats are descended from domestic cats and though they are not socialised with humans, they are still social with other cats. This "selection for the friendliest" means that modern domestic cats have evolved a long way from solitary wild ancestors in behavioural terms. In some pedigree breeds, sociability is considered an important characteristic e.g. in the Australian Mist, unneutered tomcats will live together harmoniously in small all-male groups.

The length of time we have been selectively breeding cats is described in Are Dogs More Faithful Than Cats. Basically dogs have been selectively bred for certain tasks over a much longer period of time, giving much longer for their social behaviour to be modified through selecting for specific traits. Cats have only been selectively bred for just over a century.

These two ferals are cheek rubbing to mix scents and reinforce their group membership.

These two ferals first greet each other by stretching and then by rubbing and tail-twining to mix scents to reinforce their bond.

CO-OPERATIVE HUNTING

Even co-operative hunting does sometimes occur with closely bonded cats. Littermates Bubble and Squeak were two such hunting partners. Between them, they quartered the field in front of my home, flushing out field mice for each other and often sharing the catch. 12 year old Scrapper regularly teamed up with unrelated 6 month old Aphrodite to hunt the birds that devastated my fruit bushes. This was a beneficial partnership as Scrapper, who had no teeth, flushed birds towards Aphrodite who despatched them, but didn't eat them! There was no doubt that Scrapper masterminded the operation as Aphrodite was not very bright!

Discussions with cat-owning friends have provided many more accounts of cats which flushed prey from flower borders into the waiting paws and jaws of the cats they lived with.

In 1996, studies of cats in the Galapagos Islands indicated that some cats will hunt co-operatively to increase the likelihood of successful hunts. This observation was made when prey was difficult for a single cat to catch. At the cat shelter where I work, ferals Kim, Jade and Gem (littermates) did not hunt as a group but they frequently shared their kills.

MALE COMPETITIVENESS

In a three year study of unneutered female ferals the ability of high ranking males to monopolise the receptive females depends on the females' pattern of oestrus ("heat"). Where many of the females were on oestrus around the same time period, a single male cannot monopolise them. While he is mating with one calling female, his competitors can seize the opportunity to mate with the others. DNA studies showed the kittens to have been fathered by different males (the kittens in a single litter may all have different fathers). Where the females came into oestrus over a longer period of time so that only a few were sexually receptive at any one time, the tougher males were able to dominate the supply of receptive females and some of the males fathered no kittens at all.

Many cats, both feral and domestic, apparently enjoy each other's company for its own sake and not just because there is safety in numbers. Though unneutered tomcats are often hostile towards each other, there are exceptions where toms which have been reared together may remain companionable when mature - supply of food and females permitting. Unlike dog packs, there is no alpha male or alpha couple. The fittest, meanest tomcat may get to mate first with the females, but he must usually fight for that right. In addition, females have been seen to reject victorious tomcats and to mate with the loser!

It is possible that the more sociable males will tolerate, to some extent, other males in the proximity of receptive females. They are more likely to tolerate males who, in turn, tolerate them. Often the presence of several sociable resident males will deter wandering males from even trying to mate with the resident females. Studies of pets suggest that kittens inherit much of their personality from the paternal side - sociable males produce sociable kittens (Influence of the Father on Kittens' Behaviour). In a colony situation, wandering lone males will be at a disadvantage and father fewer offspring. This is similar to the lion pride where two or three males have exclusive access to females. While the tomcats may not have exclusive access, they will father the most kittens and subsequent generations (male and female) will inherit an increased tendency to sociability. This is purely a hypothesis and there have not been any detailed studies to investigate the shift towards increased sociability.

TERRITORIALITY

A cat's territory must be large enough to support a cat i.e. have enough prey. Where food is abundant, territories are smaller. Where there is a static supply of food, e.g. a rubbish dump, the cats congregate around the found and do not stray far. Where food appears regularly and in one place -as in a household - the resident cats may have no desire to establish a large territory. A study of suburban cats in Canberra indicated a mean range of 17 acres. Some cats went further afield and others remained in their own gardens. In general, unneutered males range the furthest and their territories overlap with the territories of several unneutered females as well as with competing males. Neutered cats usually have smaller territories. As well as territories, cats establish rights of way across the territories of other cats.

Cats also have indoor ranges which also overlap. While some lay claim to an entire floor of a building, others may have ranges as small as a single countertop or chair and will only leave those ranges in order to eat or defecate. Cats with small ranges may be the pariahs, bullied by others if they leave their tiny territory. Some thought should be given to rehoming a pariah into a less crowded household. The population density of indoor cats may be 50 times that of an outdoor colony. I have never had more than 4 cats at a time in my household (not counting feral kittens being socialised and rehomed) . Most of the house is held as common territory but certain favourite spots are defended against each other. For example Motley sleeps at the head of my bed while Cindy sleeps at the foot of it and there is an invisible line which must not be crossed.

Whether indoors or outdoors, ranges are not two dimensional - they include a cat's right to certain vantage points e.g. a garage roof, a fence (this is a raised walkway for cats) and other three dimensional features. Cats also timeshare, one occupying a favourite spot until another cat came along. Territories are generally negotiated with minimal fighting - mostly with hisses, a swat or dab and maybe some yelling until one or other cat concedes the match. This division of territory is relatively peaceful and enforced by body language barely perceptible to observers. Only when one cat tries to expand its holding are conflicts likely to occur.

Upheavals occur when a new cat moves in and must carve a territory, making resident cats adjust their boundaries by force if necessary. When a cat dies, the territories also shift. When Sappho died, her space on my sofa was annexed by Queenie. The rights to the prime feeding spot on top of my fridge were similarly inherited when Aphrodite (undisputed top cat) died and Motley considered herself promoted. Behaviour patterns also change when a cat moves away or dies - this is a subtle reorganisation of social structure among those remaining behind, even if some of those cats had little or no interaction with the one which has vacated the area (scent is a strong factor in this).

Unrelated cats may gang together to defend themselves or their territory against intruders. On one occasion I was woken by Aphrodite and Sappho (twice Aphrodite's age and unrelated); between them they had cornered an opportunistic cat which had come in through the cat flap. Aphrodite guarded one end of the long hallway, Sappho guarded the other end and they played 'ping-pong' with the youngster until I rescued and evicted him.

In our households, unrelated cats often form close attachments to each other and a recent survey by British behaviourist Claire Bessant found that a number of cats grieved or pined when a companion cat died, sometimes to the extent that force-feeding was needed or another kitten had to be acquired to provide companionship. Others gain in confidence as they take over new territory. I nickname this behaviour "dead cat's paws". Some owners feel there is some sort of psychic phenomenon where a surviving cat adopts the deceased cat's behaviour and territories. The real explanation is much simpler - the deceased cat has left behind the rights to certain privileges and the survivor takes over those privileges - no longer kept in his/her place by scent markings and body language that humans simple cannot detect. In particular, the deceased cat's scent fades (it isn't being renewed daily) which tells other cats that there is a vacancy.

SOCIALISATION

How and when do cats develop their social skills? The socialisation period for kittens is between 3 and 12 weeks. There is more in dept information about the socialisation period in the article Taming Feral Kittens.

In 1930s experiments kittens raised alongside rats considered rats as companions rather than prey. Kittens raised with both rats and kittens preferred feline company, but had reduced tendencies to kill rats. However the likelihood of a young adult killing a rat does not mean it will never kill a rat. Cats are complex animals and the hunting instinct may reassert itself at any time during adulthood - and once reasserted, it seems to be reinforced by each kill.

Cats also have personalities or "behavioural styles" i.e. the style of their interaction with other cats, other animals or with people. A small percentage of cats lack the ability to be domestic pets even if born to domestic parents and raised in a household. They simply lack the right mix of genes and are not predisposed to tameness. By observing the same cats over a period of two years, from kittenhood into adulthood, behaviourists can classify cats as shy, bold, friendly, playful etc. Such studies may help in placing cats with families i.e. by having a standard checklist and noting certain key behaviours. How and when do cats develop their social skills? The socialisation period for kittens is between 3 and 12 weeks. In 1930s experiments kittens raised alongside rats considered rats as companions rather than prey. Kittens raised with both rats and kittens preferred feline company, but had reduced tendencies to kill rats. However the likelihood of a young adult killing a rat does not mean it will never kill a rat. Cats are complex animals and the hunting instinct may reassert itself at any time during adulthood - and once reasserted, it seems to be reinforced by each kill.

Behaviourists have found that cats have different personalities or "behavioural styles" i.e. how they interact with other cats, with other animals or with people. Due to the mixture of genes they inherit from each parent, a small percentage (often suggested at around 10%) will not inherit the ability to be domestic pets even if they are born to domestic parents, handled during the socialisation period and raised in a household. By observing a number of cats over a period of several years, from kittenhood into adulthood, behaviourists can classify cats as shy, bold, friendly, playful, confident etc. Such studies and identification of key traits are used by some shelters when matching cats to potential adopters.

SUMMARY

It is only quite recently that experts have started saying what many cat-owners have realised all along - cats are not necessarily solitary creatures. Some require a solitary lifestyle. Others are content to live in small groups, particularly if all of the cats are neutered. Far from suffering when kept in groups, many pet cats thrive in the company of other cats especially if they have grown up among other cats. Its ancestors may have walked by themselves, but the cat has evolved into a far more sociable animal both in a feral and a household setting.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:04:34 GMT

[quote user="Steph Worsley RVN MBVNA"]

ARGH I said consider rehoming, I never said rehoming was her only option, I agree time can play a huge part, its just I dont feel chucking them into a room together and shutting the door and letting them "work it out" is the best policy either, in fact that would be completely against everything you would want to work for.

[/quote]

wot the hell. you just spent two replies reiterating rehoming and not giving any other feedback or advice in a positive manner what else were we to assume from that?

once again no one said to lock them in a room and let them work it out! stop putting words in my mouth lady! geez! space, time and routine is what i suggested and when the spat let them sort it out! at some point the pecking order has to be established it won't just appear from thin air.

[quote]

When have I ever said that I have studied feline behaviour? NEVER so get your facts right Steph. I have an interest in feline medicine and through that know a few things re the behaviour.

[/quote]

you in your own words said we have a different opinion in feline behaviour. one would assume that if one were to have an opinion worth a grain they would have done some studying or research? no? sorry my apologies for making such a sweeping judgment by assumption. i was wrong. you just seem to make so many strong opinionated feelings know regarding feline behaviour. easily done i guess!

[quote]

TBH it just bugs me when people dont understand that cats are essentially solitary,

[/quote]

where did you get this information regarding domesticated felines? just curious do you have some articles or resources for this information?

[quote]

I have been extremely lucky that mine all get on very well together now but like I have said in the past I have had issues and tried for so long and so hard to get them to accept each other and mix that it was breaking my heart each time Ted pinned Tux down, to see the stress in Tux and Ted was unbearable, so I am speaking from experience in my own life, when I say do not discount rehoming, as it may turn out to be the best option for both cats

[/quote]

you're right not all cats can live together and it's a shame yours didn't work out i'm sure that broke your heart. but you have to take on experiences of others as well and not just focus on one relationship. not at any point have i discounted rehoming, again words...mouth...no...

rehoming should be last resort but not with out at least a few months between for observation and conditioning with a healthy routine. then consider it. I've rehomed and rehabilitated almost 100 cats in the last 13 yrs and if i only focused on one or two i would have never done as well as i did.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Louise B — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:02:19 GMT

Hi, yes, I am thinking as a distraction/redirection technique. Assuming that the focus is play then I would be looking to redirect it away from the other cat as this stage so that calmer interactive or close proximity behaviours when the newcomer is in a less reactive state still take place (i.e. so that pleasant or neutral encounters take place primarily and that ones that 'go wrong' are minimised). It is hard to know for sure without knowing what the full circumstances of this cat are so we would need alot more info to give specific advice but the way my brain is working is:

a) I am taking the owner's assessment at face value

b) I am assuming that the cat is young and so has a lot of energy to use up

c) It is confined to the house for the moment so entirely dependent on the environment within the house to meet its behavioural needs of which one will be play

d) The other cat is the most interesting moving thing in the house to interact with in a play way

e) but then the new cat cannot cope with the fact that the other cat responds in the way that it does (we are still assuming here that the older cat is responding in a non-aggressive way)

f) the cat then finds itself in a state of motivational conflict

- it wants to play

- but it doesn't (at this stage) want the other cat to respond in this way

(I am thinking a bit like the cat that solicits stroking but then bites the owners hand)

g) lashes out at the other cat.

Now,

we can

a) leave them to sort things out (which may well work - I am not saying it won't) but it may also lead them both associating each other with unpleasant encounters which is not going to help the relationship (but not necessarily - a lot will depend on the precise nature of the encounters, the cats temperments, etc)

b) we can try to engineer the situation so that the cats get used to each other during less aroused states and we provide more environmental enrichment for the newcomer so that it is less likely to even want to play with the other cat as its need for play is being met by other means.

Zylkene can't do any harm.

Hope this makes sense and the grammar is okay. I am shattered and off to bed shortly!

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Steph Worsley — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:52:17 GMT

When have I ever said that I have studied feline behaviour? NEVER so get your facts right Steph. I have an interest in feline medicine and through that know a few things re the behaviour.

TBH it just bugs me when people dont understand that cats are essentially solitary, I have been extremely lucky that mine all get on very well together now but like I have said in the past I have had issues and tried for so long and so hard to get them to accept each other and mix that it was breaking my heart each time Ted pinned Tux down, to see the stress in Tux and Ted was unbearable, so I am speaking from experience in my own life, when I say do not discount rehoming, as it may turn out to be the best option for both cats

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:44:47 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

Fair enough re: crating but I would still suggest not leaving them alone at this stage when not there to supervise. Funkyfish says that she starts off trying to play and that the male goes to play back - coming from Funkyfish who is pretty up on her behaviour I am guessing that she is giving an accurate description of what is actually happening (although video footage would help). Assuming that this is the case then I would say there is a chance of mixing these two successfully but that it will a) take time (I am in agreement with stephb here) and b) that success will be aided by minimising negative encounters and maximising postive encounters - with a jolly good helping of counter-conditioning thrown in for good measure by teaching both cats that playing in the company of each other is fun.

I wouldn't rehome at this stage either though - I would give them more time. That said, I guess it depends how much else is going on in your household, size of the territory, etc. All stuff we don't know about.

I suppose my feeling is at least give them a go - it might not work and you might end up rehoming but as there are already more cats than there are homes for if this can work successfully why add to the pool of cats looking for homes?

[/quote]

erm fuzzyfish? agreed on unsupervised(i.e.home alone) but definitely leave them to spat and try to work it out and give them freedom at night for a try. I just find over penning for too long can cause anxiety in some felines and it can make matters worse.

Distraction like play can also sometimes encourage the behaviour so not sure i would do it to interrupt them i guess? but maybe leave her cage open and play with him or even if you have two people one play with him and one play with her and come together! Zylkene may also be helpful for the two of them for a while. I still would be interested to find out if the kit is spayed yet.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Louise B — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:42:57 GMT

LOL. Just realised that it is fuzzyduck and not funkyfish. Okay, I have no idea re: fuzzyduck's behavioural background - sorry fuzzyduck! Please get some video footage. It would be much appreciated. Please would you email it to me if you can:

00701530@harper-adams.ac.uk

as I am trying to collect some video resources of companion animals showing different behaviours for potential use with students. Assuming I have your permission of course!!!

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Louise B — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:38:13 GMT

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:31:42 GMT

[quote user="Steph Worsley RVN MBVNA"]

yes she may not have had them long but to put 2 animals who are naturally solitary animals together as carefully as she has and then for one of them still to be aggressive then I think that for the welfare of both cats then it would be better to rehome, well its either that or spend a fortune on getting a fully qualified behaviourist in

as for your ocicat treating you like another cat, its not that unusual all 4 of mine do this to me, there is often a mutual grooming circle and i often get included as its more often than not when i'm in bed

[/quote]

Sorry, i just don't think its fair to assume what she is assuming and seeing is necessarily aggressive with out seeing it myself. i like to assume that it's just communication between the cats and they are meeting greeting and establishing boundaries. we also can only assume what she says she has done is what we would interpret as 'carefully introducing them'. If at any point she didn't keep a routine or responded to the kitten seeking attention this would exacerbate the situation and spin it a whole different direction.

I think it's unfair to assume the worst and say rehome after 2wks of intro. I wouldn't have any cats if I lived by that motto. they're time line for getting to know space and other cats is very different and if study feline behaviour like you say you do, you would know this.

It would only take one time for her to cross a regular path of his for her to immediately put her back up and be ready to attack because she would know she was crossing territory. so if he then entered that area when she was trespassing she would be on guard and he would also. but if at any point the OP interrupted or called out during their 'discussion of terms' it would mess it all up and they would break up and move on and wait til they could discuss it when she wasn't involved.

Without physically seeing them I wouldn't like to assume either way and I like to keep things positive and give felines in particular lots of room and lots of time and whole lot of routine because they are seriously habitual animals. same paths, same times, same places, same voice and highly predictable when well known. I think just keeping a routine and giving them time and places to escape if need be should suffice.

and who said what relationship i have with my ocicat was unusual? please don't put words in my mouth. i will agree we have difference of opinions and the OP has asked for other opinions as well as ours. but i'm happy to explain my feelings and why i feel what i feel and i have that right thanks! but please do not put words in my mouth. thanks.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:21:58 GMT

to me it sounds like she is doing what is totally natural. she's locked up an is used to one area and has this marked and then is entering new territory with different scents. then she encounters another cat! they just need to make their own space. i'm not sure crating her at this point is really beneficial personally and could possibly be hindering her progression with the regular tenant! it's making her feel trapped and like she is in a foreign place. she needs to be left at dusk or night when she feels comfortable in her skin to explore. you can't expect there not to be any noise. after breeding cats and rehoming and owning cats for so many years it just becomes natural to me but to someone that's not used to it. it can be very frightening but generally neutered males go fairly well with female kittens/adolescents. They just take time to adjust and if hormones are involved as well this will make it even more complex.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Steph Worsley — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:17:07 GMT

Steph I'm not going to go into this with you yet again we both know we have different views on cat behaviour.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Louise B — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:15:26 GMT

From her behaviour and your perception of what is going on my tentative guess is she originates from a single kitten litter or a handrear such that she has not learnt to play with other cats. She seems to want to play but then is overwhelmed when it happens. Plus, there is the overwhelming fact that cats are solitary species so not predisposed to play with strangers but it sounds like she starts trying to. However, video footage would help with this.

If she was mine I would get a toy - e.g mouse on a rope or similar and whenever you see cues that she is about to try to play with your other cat immediately redirect it onto a toy. If you are not there to supervise keep them in separate rooms / kitten crated (crating = very short term measure only). If that progresses well then I would try to engage both cats in playing with two toys (one each) simultaneously so that they get used to being in a 'reactive but pleasureable state' but without aggression/conflict with each other.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:08:38 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

Purely for selfish reasons I would love some video footage of this interaction (from start to finish) so that I can see both cats body language from the start.

[/quote]

I would be interested in this as well. :) i find it fascinating! i love watching mine at home and also using their body language myself to try and be more personable with them. My little ocicat actually treats me like another cat with head buts, blinking, biting, grooming and nursing. very cute.

she's only had her 2 wks in the mix. my queen didn't mix in my home for almost 2yrs! she's just now getting more friendly. she was under a bed for 3 weeks when we got her!

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:06:36 GMT

[quote user="Steph Worsley RVN MBVNA"]

Hmmm i'm not a qualified behaviourist but i would say for the sake of your existing boy that you may have to consider rehoming, I had to do this with a lovely boy I took on as he constantly had my big male pinned and of course my original boy took precedence and had to rehome the newer boy, it broke my heart as he was a gorgeous thing so affectionate (used to nibble ears lol) but it was best for him as he was getting stressed as well and he had recurrent cystitis, so for everyones sake he went to a home where he was a solo cat

[/quote]

she's not had her long!! give her a chance at least...

for the OP is she spayed yet? if she's coming into season that will make him a little funny and make her seriously funny before she starts calling. some queens before calling can get very aggressive.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Louise B — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:05:27 GMT

Purely for selfish reasons I would love some video footage of this interaction (from start to finish) so that I can see both cats body language from the start.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Steph Worsley — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:04:09 GMT

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Anonymous — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:59:37 GMT

hiya congrats on the new baby.

Firstly keep in mind what we may assume is hostile or upset behaviour may not be. for example when someone tickles you or chases you playfully what do you do? do you scream? shout? cry? but are you truly angry? keep in mind cats have a completely different language and you have to try not to humanise them. it's easy to assume they are fighting by all the noise but naturally they are very noisy creatures!

i have three cats in my home one mother, son and aunty no relation. They all snuggle, snarl, snap, bit, chew, pull fur, lick, hiss, share and chase all day long!! just depends on the day and their mood or even mine!

sometimes cats will act out if they think they are getting your attention too. so even if she goes for him and makes a racket and you respond with any motion or verbal cue she may do it just to make sure you are still there and to see what you might be doing. I like to call it button pushing... lol they're clever little boogers!!

I would let them have the space to themselves. block off the bedrooms and any large room like dining room and just let them work it out. you may find you come home to them snuggled up together or you may find one under the bed or on top of the fridge for a day or so. Cats just like to do things in their own time with their own rules. :) Hope this helps.

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Fuzzyduck — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:58:22 GMT

I dont know any history of her, she came in to work as a stray. Its just a guess at her age but she is young.

She is very settled in the cage, she just goes to sleep in her bed. I usually wait until shes settled then open the cage door for her to come out when she wants to, sometimes she comes out straight away, other times she stays in there and sleeps for a while.

I really dont want to have to get rid of her as shes such a sweet natured cat with us, but i cant have them fighting all the time

Re: New cat behaviour help.

Steph Worsley — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:51:41 GMT

hey, it seems like you have done every thing by the book, however you have to remember that cats are essentially solitary animals, and it may be that she is a one cat household cat

do you know anything of her history prior to coming to you?is she settled when she's in the cage in the same room as him?