Heartless?

Re: Heartless?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:01:03 GMT

I know what you mean, and I think its healthy for us to be detached from the animals. This doesnt mean we dont all provide the best care possible for our patients.

Yesterday we had to PTS a "regular"- lovely little dog with a really nice owner, but sadly he just had one thing after another. His owner couldnt be there and I held him as he went to sleep, nice and peacefully. I was sad, but more for the owner as I know its ending the dogs suffering.

Re: Heartless?

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 20:00:44 GMT

The most upsetting euthanasia I have ever seen was at my first practice - long standing diabetic patient - always in for boarding, or nurse appts - everyone knew her and loved her to bits!

As a diabetic, she was on a strict diet of hills w/d - no treats (apart from carrots which she wasn't too keen on!)

She was boarding with us when she went rapidly downhill and the vets adv euthanasia - verbal consent obtained over the phone from tearful owners, who told us that her fave treat used to be custard creams...

This wee pooch was euthanased in the arms of the head nurse, whilst being fed custard creams, and every nurse in the practice was there in the ward with her.... and we were all balling our eyes out...

Very very sad, but it's also kind of a nice memory in a way, as this lil pooch knew all the nurses well, trusted us, and of course was munching custard creams as she passed.....

Re: Heartless?

Selena Carnell — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 19:10:03 GMT

I find it hard if they are cases that we have seen regularly, but i never go home and really think about it.

The worst PTS i find are home euths with elderly people as often the animals are their life.

Re: Heartless?

Katie B — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:27:25 GMT

It sounds to me that you just block it out, which is fair enough. I am an emotional person and would do anything for any animals so when I started my placement I thought that I would forever be getting upset and not be able to handle it but I coped just fine. Don't get me wrong I feel upset when an operattion goes badly and they die on the table but I seem to block it out. Although I have witnessed a PTS and I did feel upset but I knew to keep it together in the practise. Just got a little upset when I went home.

Apparrently the highest suicide rate in a career is Veterinary medicine because they have to make the decision to end an animals life. A doctor doesn't have that, you lose a patient and it was just their time to go but a vet has to make that decision. So cutting yourself off I think is natural and healthy!

Re: Heartless?

emmRAR — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:21:46 GMT

I've been nursing just over a year, and I think I've cried at 2 pts's - both were ongoing cases, lovely people, lovely dogs. Both times the owner gave me a hug! I am only 20 though so still relatively young and getting the hang of detachment.

Re: Heartless?

Juliet Drummond DAVN (med) RVN D32/33 — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:57:21 GMT

[quote user="Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Tinky"] The nurse in question always tries to get out of helping with PTS's, and won't put them into a bag until 30 mins after they've died "just in case", cries with a lot, and writes messages on their body bags. Sweet, but annoying...[/quote]

[/quote]

sounds weird to me

i put them in bum first too, (though my first thought is 'quick before it wee's and poo's everywhere)

i do treat them with a bit of respect though, they were someone's beloved pet.

[quote user="Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Tinky"] I take a deep breath and carry on.[/quote]

[/quote]

then it's business as usual

Re: Heartless?

Susan Jackson — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:01:07 GMT

I really like this one. I thought I was a little strange but I'm exactly the same. I love doing what I do. I do the work to the best standards. Keep them warm, clean fed and watered. Care for them as they need for their current conditions. I talk to them and fuss them during what I do but I have absolutly no emotional attachment.

I find PTS not hard to do as far as the animals part but I find that owners crying does make me feel something. I know I'm not heartless cos I had a cat which I took on for a week and it had to be PTS. I held her myself and bawled my eye's out at the same time. I also turned in to a wreck when I picked my dead cat off the road and I had to bag her the next day at work. I just got on with it, it was no longer her.

I think for me in an emergency situation I serve no one by getting emotional. Get on with what you need to do to TRY and save this animals life. If it dies and you've done what you should of, then that was going to happen.

Re: Heartless?

Phrin Vernon RVN — Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:57:16 GMT

I agree - never head first! I too always try and get them in the bag nicely - it's never going to be a good thing to have to do, but that animal was someone's beloved pet, and so I try and give that pet the dignity I can given the situation.

I once worked with a nurse who left animals (bagged usually) out of the freezer for at least 30 mins to let the animals aura to escape. Now while I don't agree with her reasoning, as a friend I respect it, and I do agree with her about the head first thing!

I lost my cat to an rta whilst out of practice - she died in my arms on the way to the local vets, and when i got there, i asked that she didn't go in head first - just seems wrong

Re: Heartless?

paula morgan — Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:41:36 GMT

i agrre with Vicky, sometimes I will tear up but I cant help it, but once its done I do try and just get on with it. I also try and lay them out nicely in the bag, its the last thing we can do for them x

Re: Heartless?

Vicky RVN — Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:36:22 GMT

My reaction tends to vary according to the patient and the owners reaction. I manage to hide my emotions most of the time, it's only those long term cases which you've got attached to that really get me...one a few months ago on a lovely cocker with a really nice owner springs to mind. The vet and i both showed our emotions that day as much as we tried not to, and the owner thanked us...he must have realised how attached we'd got to his little man whilst he'd been and an out of the hospital. I try my hardest not to show my emotions because i feel like i don't have a right to get upset, i'm not going through what they are loosing their beloved pet. But sometimes a tear will show no matter how hard i try. But like others after i walk out of that room i take a deep breath, pull myself together and carry on with my work.

[quote user="Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA"]I don't putting the body into the bag head first, I get really weird about that and I'm not sure why[/quote]

I am the same, it's got to be bum first. I am always very careful in the way they are put into the bag, i try to make them as curled up/laid nicely as possible.

Re: Heartless?

Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA — Sun, 26 Dec 2010 10:37:57 GMT

sounds very annoying...

I don't putting the body into the bag head first, I get really weird about that and I'm not sure why... but when they are gone they're bagged tagged and put in cold store.

[quote user="Tinky"] I take a deep breath and carry on.[/quote]

Exactally - nothing else for it!

Re: Heartless?

Tinky — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 15:27:50 GMT

I generally don't allow myself to get upset - I think when i first started nursing 9 years ago, I found PTS's quite difficult, but now I don't.

I have been called "hard-faced" and "uncaring" by a colleague, quite regularly in fact.... but it's not that I don't care. That animal has nothing to do with my life, it's not my pet, it's not one of my family/friends pets, and it's death will not affect my personal life in any way. Harsh I know, but I just have to say it's my job, and if I let myself get upset I'd be a complete wreck! Especially considering this week I've helped with approx 3 PTS's every day. The nurse in question always tries to get out of helping with PTS's, and won't put them into a bag until 30 mins after they've died "just in case", cries with a lot, and writes messages on their body bags. Sweet, but annoying....

Occasionally I do have a lump in my throat - but that's usually only with clients who are hysterical and I feel for them, I really do... I know what it's like to lose a much loved pet, and wouldn't wish that feeling on most people - but once I leave the consult room, I take a deep breath and carry on.

Re: Heartless?

Maisy — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 08:56:46 GMT

I found euths difficult when I first started out but although I generally don't get upset now, I do feel complete empathy with the client. My old labrador was pts last year and for a couple of months afterwards there seemed to be a surge of lab pts' which I couldn't assist with, I think thats the only time in my career when I've had to pass assisiting on to a colleague. Obviously its more difficult for long-term patients who you know and have nursed. Like others have said you do need some degree of emotional detachment though just to help you get through the day otherwise you'd be very unhappy dealing with this daily and constantly being upset.

There's definitely a big difference in not allowing emotions to take over yet still feeling compassion and care to the animal and owner, to having no feeling whatsoever.

Re: Heartless?

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:29:34 GMT

When I first started in practice as an 18yo with no real life experience, euths didn't really bother me at all! As I have got older, and especially since bearing my son, and then loosing my bestest collie girl ever, I find I am much more inclined to get emotionally invested in cases.....

Re: Heartless?

Mrs Dot Dot — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:12:58 GMT

I think you probably go thru phases in your life when you are / get more emotionally attached than others.... reading this thread thru has made me realise that I definately have. Maybe if people stay in the profession for many years and think back, then it will seem that there have definately been some more emotional times than others. Recently I've found that I get upset when older dogs with male owners are euth'd.... Why??? seeing men cry? because peviously I was a cat person and now understand the difference in emotional attachment that having a dog means?.... especially for me, as nobody could have explained to me how attached, and how I think I will feel, when I lose my dog!

Anyway, I do get more emotional now than I have done at other other times... not with all cases, otherwise I would be a basket-case!...... but maybe I will grow out of it.......

Re: Heartless?

rachel w — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:50:33 GMT

I think with pts we have to have a place where we can seperate work from home life there are a few patients in our practice that i am dreading the day they get pts cos i will cry but thats more because of the owners reactions.

With inpatients all our nurses stay after shifts have ended come in on wkends ooh if needed to cover them we tend to get attatched to our long term patients

Re: Heartless?

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:31:52 GMT

I think I'm somewhere in the middle... I do get attached to certain patients, and upset at cetain pts's but perhaps 80% of the time I am OK with the tougher aspects of the job, and it doesn't affect me untowardly.

As someone else said - professional detachment. I wish I could look at all cases objectively, but there is always that odd long standing patients that gets to you....

Stuart, I don't think you are heartless at all - you have just learned not to take work home with you - which I think can only be a good thing in this line of work. We get enough stess at work, and it can't be healthy for those of us that worry about cases outside of work hours. Plus, as I touched on, having that detachment will make you more objective about the patient's condition and needs - when you start to get emotionally involved it can be very difficult to do so IMHO.

Re: Heartless?

loobylou — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:49:37 GMT

I don't think it's heartless at all. Although I'm probably not as extreme as you, I do get upset when we lose regular patients or a particular case/ client that has got to me.I don't get upset at PTS's or worry about patients when I'm off or get affected by emotional blackmail type situationsv(mostly money orientated). For me it's something I have to do otherwise I would be emotionally drained all the time and I wouldn't feel able to do my job properly. I don't think it makes you any less of a nurse, you are still meeting the needs of the patient but also protecting yourself.

I used to work with a vet who wanted all the clients to be her friend and got herself so emotionally involved in all her cases that she ended up exhausted. She was ill and stressed all the time. Yes the clients loved her but I don't feel she was able to do her job to the best of her ability as her head was so clouded with stress and worry all the time.

Re: Heartless?

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:41:00 GMT

Thanks Gillian l feel l have 2 choices lock myself in a corner and give up or do what l promised Brian a few days after his death when we went for a walk round the airfield. "Not do anything stupid and do my best to make him proud of me". It isnt easy at times but l am not going to do number one.

Re: Heartless?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 11:29:51 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite VN, MBVNA, C-SQP"]Understand Stuart and used to follow that however since Brian l have found pts very difficult when owners are present. I am able to shut out most of it if it is just me or the vet and l who do it but put the emotions of owners in the mix and it does become very difficult for me at that moment. [/quote]

Would agree completely. I am usually very professional with things like this but when my Dad died 2 years ago I couldn't do PTS consults for a few months - just found it far too distressing for me. And my loss doesn't compare to losing a spouse so it sounds to me like you are managing your emotions very well - and very bravely!

Re: Heartless?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 11:20:44 GMT

[quote user="Stuart McQueen RVN MBVNA"]

more empathy than sympathy

[/quote]

totally agree with that statement - Must admit over the years both in vet nursing and in pyscho therapy I have done exactly the same. Heres a quote that really hit home for me when I was starting out in the psychotherapy business and I now apply it equally to nursing

'if all you can give is sympathy you are nothing but a prostitute'

ie keep doling out the sympathy to somebody and they stay exactly where they are - stuck in their misery. Give out some empathy and you can help to move them on.So guess that makes me a hard bitch - but my clients seem to appreciate it

My feelings are that for your own mental health you have to take a step back because if you dont you cannot do the best for the animal or the owner - somebody has to hold things together.

In agreement with Carolyn when you have suffered a close personal loss it is so much harder to hold things together. I havnt done any face to face bereavement counselling now for almost 2 years - I wouldnt be fair to my client and it wouldnt do me any good either.

Re: Heartless?

Steph Phillips — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:46:54 GMT

Glad you did this thread Stuart.. I totally agree aith you! - I very very rarely get emotional when assisting in a PTS.. Infact the only thing that pulls on my heart strings is when a kid is crying!! I remember we euth'ed a hamster once, and omg the poor kid.. he blubbed, and he was only 5.. reminded me of when my Dylan lost his gerbils!

Re: Heartless?

Steph Worsley — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:36:06 GMT

The way I look at it and have done since i started nursing, is that I have had to "build a wall" around my heart and not let anyone through, although sometimes this fails and my wall comes tumbling down, but that is only with a few patients.

I do occasionally go home and worry about patients but that is only generally because I know what sort of characters the patients have and worry that the students wont understand or treat them like I would and sometimes that can be detrimental to the patients well being. ie we have had a few cats in, who through bad experiences at their own vets have been less than happy for us to deal with them, i have spent hours with these patients building up their trust and working out how is best to deal with them and then I have had to leave them for a weekend, come back in on the monday and they are back to square one

I can say hand on heart that in 11 years nursing I have probably cried at or let 5 PTS's get to me.

Sometimes I thinkbeing able to keep your distance like this may be a good thing, I know if I got emotionally involved in every case then I would end up having a nervous breakdown and be sectioned! I think this would have happened a long time ago!

Re: Heartless?

Kerry Spain — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:27:45 GMT

I like think of it as a professional detachment.

Re: Heartless?

shelly jefferies — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:16:17 GMT

Think this is a difficult subject it is down to the individual ...... I tend to get a little too involved sometimes i think and will text duty vet on a weekend to check on inpatient if particularly ill or intense case have been involved in. Have a good bond with lots of clients, always remain professional when doing euthanases, but think nice if owners realise you feel for them. However being tuff would make life a little easier some times....and i think being tuff in these situations doesn't mean you aren't a good nurse or don't care it is just each to their own!!