Any advice greatly appreciated.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Claire Cameron — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:58:28 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

ooops! thought it seemed a bit weird!

[/quote]

Sorry, blonde moment combined with lack of food and sleep!

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Tracy Windler RVN — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:48:45 GMT

ooops! thought it seemed a bit weird!

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Claire Cameron — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:44:46 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

I don't really understand why you have quoted my post for this? We are both in agreement that the dog should not be left with a full bladder and have merely given different opinions as to how it could be dealt with.

[/quote]

Sorry I clicked quote by accident when I replied. I didn't mean to quote your reply

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Tracy Windler RVN — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:12:25 GMT

I have also worked in referral orthopaedics, where all spinal patients were catheterised as standard and there was a very high incidence of urine infections. I believe it is one of those situations where many proffesionals disagree as to the best course of action.

As I mentioned, but perhaps not expIained fully, I have found in cases of trauma, it is much more common for cats to be in this situation. Dogs often have full hind-limb ataxia, but if given the opportunity, they can still urinate. I have had to express a bladder of a dog in this situation who will then goes on to urinate normally, once "started off".

In the case of this dog, the information we had seemed to suggest that he had only one hind limb which was not functioning properly, so is unlikely to be sitting in his own overflow urine.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Claire Cameron — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:50:09 GMT

[quote user="Tracy Windler RVN"]

Errm , at risk of cotradicting the vet, I didn't think it was a good idea to allow the bladder to get to the point of emptying itself, you risk de-sensitizing the nerves which respond to a full bladder.

We have expressed bladders of dogs who do not urinate normally. Its not as common (in my experience) in dogs as it is in cats, post RTA's etc.

[/quote]

I work in referral hospital and ALL of our spinal patients are catheterised, without catheterising the bladder, residual urine can remain in the bladder and bacteria and other badness can multiply.

My boss informs me that the highest cause of death in spinal patients(humans) is kidney failure due to inadequate bladder management.

I would suggest the dog receives a full neuro exam and is examined by an orthopaedic vet or neurologist.

If cost is a serious issue, the first opinion vet could call a referral hospital for advice.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

ginny — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:55:24 GMT

I echo dinkyd - you could ask for a referral to a vet who is into neurology and orthopedics. I think you need a diagnosis (and prognosis) for this dog. I would be concerned about the lack of urination and defeacation as well, and whether there is any pain sensation there.

I hope it works out ok for you.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Nicola Smith — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 08:50:22 GMT

Hi, there are cheaper referrals around - 1 of our clients had MRI an spinal surgery for around 2.5K. I would not let the bladder overfill - spinal injuries I have seen who cant wee have had urinary catheters in place initially. If you want to know the practice we referred to then pm me, my boss also uses a reasnably priced ortho but he doesnt have MRI but can do myelogram so maybe another option.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

dinkyd — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 02:08:21 GMT

i would advise ref to orthro/neuro specialist-where further work up/diagnosis/prognosis can be made.......wouldnt want to interfere by other means until actual diagnosis has been made....whether insured or not.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

mlv — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:24:45 GMT

tbh I would advise acupuncture and physio plus rest and tlc !

a brilliant alternative to rimadyl etc is something called boswellia complex. it's a natural alternative without the gi side effects. defo worth a try.

maybe hydrotherapy at a later date too.

a much cheaper option as well

hope he's ok...

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Steph Worsley — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:35:11 GMT

when a bladder gets EXTREMELY full it will sometimes overflow.....this is not good due to the fact that as a bladder gets bigger it stretches and if it stays large for any length of time it can cause it to lose all muscle tone and then if the dog does regain feeling/sphincter control then it still wont be able to control its bladder function.

there is also the possibility that the bladder can actually rupture if it gets very large.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Tracy Windler RVN — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:34:46 GMT

We have expressed bladders of dogs who do not urinate normally. Its not as common (in my experience) in dogs as it is in cats, post RTA's etc.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Nick Shackleton — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:30:42 GMT

Personally I think indwelling catheter and collection system would be ideal to prevent urine scalds etc and also ins and outs can be measured properly

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Forlan — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:25:29 GMT

Thanks, not sure what his options are regarding other vets, but will pass on what you have said so that he can decide the best course of action.

Looks like he is looking at getting himself a loan.

He was told by the vet that if the dogs bladder was to fill up it would empty itself! Is this the case, and if so will this cause damage?

The info I am getting is all in bits and bobs, as I am being fed it from my brother via facebook!

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Tracy Windler RVN — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:21:44 GMT

You could try a cheaper referral (do you have any local vets who are more experienced, but not necessarily dedicated referral?) They wouldn't necessarily do an MRI, but perhaps just a mylogram (xray spine with contrast media). This would still be a large expense, but not quite £2.5K. Sometimes surgery is indicated, sometimes not. I didn't quite understand if he was totally ataxic on both hind limbs or not?? (might just be me not reading it properly!)

Usually, if its a swelling of the tissue, it can be resolved with rest, but if its a disc protrusion/extrusion, surgery is often the best option. Very simplified, but thats the general gist I got when working with an orthopaedic surgeon. The rest period is pretty long. At least 6 weeks usually and it must be very strict!

The dog is probably quite content if he's quite a laid-back type. He won't necessarily be in any pain (although obviously each case is different)

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Forlan — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:19:04 GMT

Thank you all. I have passed that info onto him.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Nick Shackleton — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:15:29 GMT

It all depends on what has been diagnosed to be honest and the only way to find that out is to perform an MRI scan or myleography (either CT or plain film).

all depends with there is true impingement of the spinal cord (in the form of a protrusion or extrusion) or whether it is a Fibro-cartilaginous embolism. The latter are usually treated medical and the former two are treated with surgery.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Steph Worsley — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:14:21 GMT

there is a possibility that with anti inflams and cage rest they can recover however the only way to get a definate diagnosis and more definate prognosis is proper neurology examination and MRI (not sure which part of the uk he is in but our MRI's are in the region of 2 grand including the referral consult and anaesthetic and prob at least one nights hosp in that as well.)

I would be concerned about the lack of urination/defecation as if there is major nerve damage then if he is still eating/drinking and not urinating in particular he's going to have overflow and bladder tone damage.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

Forlan — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:58:24 GMT

Thank you, I will pass that on to him. The guy is really worried, the pooch means the world to him.

Re: Any advice greatly appreciated.

paula morgan — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:52:03 GMT

We have had a few dogs in like this, funnily enough mostly Collies, we have normally done cage rest and physio and they have got better. This exact thing happened to one of our vets Collies and he was referred but I forget what treatment he got but if I remember correctly it was still cage rest and physio that he had x