Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Tracey Louise — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:07:16 GMT

[quote user="Sal (the 1st) Holesworth VN CMH Chyp (M)PNLP"]

I dont enjoy upsetting people - but they didnt believe me and I had to put up with weeks of the 'evils' whenever we worked together again.

[/quote]

Dont u just hate that, when some people cant just be 'professional' and let things go, gggrrrr

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Sal the 1st — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:58:15 GMT

and me too - ie doing a night shift and keyholder has gone to bed and is nicely asleep, had to ring them because a # cat was screaming (wasnt actually due more pain relief for another hour and if that had been the case then night shift vet would already have been downstairs on duty with key)

it was a toss up what was worse the cats screaming or the vets temper and upshot was just to give it its dose early which I would have loved to do but key was residing in same bedroom as the vet so they still had to get up. I didnt derive any pleasure from waking the vet up early, I dont enjoy upsetting people - but they didnt believe me and I had to put up with weeks of the 'evils' whenever we worked together again.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Emma Purnell — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:46:55 GMT

[quote user="Sal (the 1st) Holesworth VN CMH Chyp (M)PNLP"]just a little query but how many times have nurses found themselves in a position where they are not able to access pentoject or pain relief on veterinary surgeons instructions because it is locked away and key is with key holder who is not on the premises (and it should be locked away I have no qualms about that )[/quote]

Regularly.

I had a cat fitting and was unable to access any drugs for it, had to give it supportive tx until the vet I had to call out arrived...

Lengthy discussions were had and we now keep some rectal tubes hidden somewhere only the nurses know in case needed.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Sal the 1st — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:09:07 GMT

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot' Tracey Plant RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Phrin SVN"]

However, until very recently (last few weeks), RSPCA inspectors were allowed to PTS animals without a VS guidance I believe - and I'm not sure why it has suddenly changed

[/quote]

Until recently RSPCA inspectors use to carry pentobarbitone around with them but now they've changed it (for safety reasons/ H&S/ legal reasons I guess... makes alot of sense) so they can't euthanase so they take them to the nearest vets for euth.... we had a letter come thru from the RSPCA explaining this...... it's not too much of a problem except for at night/ out of hourse when they have something that needs doing urgently and so have to contact a vet out of hours......

[/quote]

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/Nov2009/News061109/rspca.htm

(tried to find the original press report but havnt found it yet)

from what I have been told this had something to do with it - and although the H+S issue is there it is more to do with an animal actually being seen by a vet and the need for euthanasia being established. Which I agree is not helpful to gravely injured animals who need to meet their maker asap to relieve suffering but on the other hand may be useful to some animals who may be borderline or treatable cases.

just a little query but how many times have nurses found themselves in a position where they are not able to access pentoject or pain relief on veterinary surgeons instructions because it is locked away and key is with key holder who is not on the premises (and it should be locked away I have no qualms about that )

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Mrs Dot Dot — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:50:15 GMT

[quote user="Phrin SVN"]

However, until very recently (last few weeks), RSPCA inspectors were allowed to PTS animals without a VS guidance I believe - and I'm not sure why it has suddenly changed

[/quote]

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Vicky Dalton-Placzek — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:47:04 GMT

hmm ok, well in that case i'll have a word with my teacher tomorrow, cos i'm quite uncertain about this area and what is legal and what isn't, but has been quite interesting hasnt it!

thanks for all the replies

Vicky

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:21:46 GMT

[quote user="Dippy"]

If it's not a silly question, why would your own vet(s) not be contactable, at least by phone to give permission for euth or at least pain relief until they could get back to the sugery? Is there a time when a nurse is on duty/on call without access to a vet by phone or pager?

[/quote]

Occasionally all our vets are out on LA calls, which sometimes means that due to rural mobile phone coverage, we can't get hold of them. This happens rarely, but does happen. We even more rarely, then phone our main branch to be told that all their vets are on LA calls and uncontactable.

Its a rare occurence but it does happen once in a blue moon.

Anyway - I kinda got interested about the more general question - Nurse faced with an animal in excruciating pain, but unable to contact a vet ...... euthanasia requested and form signed.... but then its the POM-V thing!

However, until very recently (last few weeks), RSPCA inspectors were allowed to PTS animals without a VS guidance I believe - and I'm not sure why it has suddenly changed

Just an interesting topic with respect to preventing suffering

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Kim Buckley — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:04:57 GMT

It is an interesting question.

What I was thinking in regards to the owners complaining would be as a nurse we are not allowed to diagnose. So what if a cat was rushed in and yes it needed to be put to sleep and the owners want it doing so you went ahead and did it and then the owners turned around and asked if it could have been saved, we could not give them an answer. They could then feel that they weren't given full, informed consent (if that makes sense). I mean I think it would very rarely happen but if it did then it could be a legal mind field.

I have had the situation described happen to me. In my old practice we stayed on site overnight with a vet on call from their house. A member of non clinical staff rushed her cat in in the morning and I took the cat in. Normally the client would have to wait for the vet to arrive to be let in for security reasons. The cat had severe head trauma and a prolapsed eye but there was nothing I could do until the vet arrived. I put him on oxygen and then comforted the member of staff. Once the vet did arrived, she assessed the cat and decided that euthanasia would be the best option. The owner agreed and so we put him to sleep. I didn't feel that I should offer euthanasia and to be honest it didn't even crossed my mind because that isn't my job. I did what I could for the cat and tried to keep the owner calm.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Dippy — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:03:46 GMT

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:47:29 GMT

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]

[quote user="Phrin SVN"]

In terms of your essay, if a very badly injured RTA cat (for example) came in, owners requested euthanasia, and there were no vets on the premises (or available by phone) to ask, then I would think that a VN or RVN would be OK to perform euth if they got signed consent from the owners including perhaps signing that they are happy for VN to perform euth and understand a full veterinary surgeons exam hasn't been carried out.

[/quote]

I still reckon there would be legalities with the use of a POM-V in this situation. I would be a bit wary just in case it backfired and the owners weren't happy even if they had signed something.

[/quote]

Good point - but what would or could you do if you have an animal suffering excruciating pain in front of you?

I suppose you could try ringing a neighbouring vet, but then you still wouldn't be covered as they aren't acting on behalf of your employer

Administering pain relief would be a no in this situation too as that would be POM-V

Or you could leave the animal to suffer until a vet appeared to approve euth - but we are duty bound (or our employers are) to prevent suffering

This is a very interesting question, and thank goodness the situation I posted was hypothetical - but given that situation is there anything a nurse could do, legally, other than leave the animal to suffer?

And to be fair, in mixed practice we do occasionally have times when vets are unavailable - off the premises at some remote farm with no mobile signal, and no vets at the branch practices either.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Kim Buckley — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:33:48 GMT

[quote user="Phrin SVN"]

[/quote]

I still reckon there would be legalities with the use of a POM-V in this situation. I would be a bit wary just in case it backfired and the owners weren't happy even if they had signed something.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:15:28 GMT

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:11:55 GMT

I agree Kim.

Its an administration of a POM-V med, so if the vet directs you to do it then that's fine.

Re: Veterinary Nurses and euthanasia

Kim Buckley — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 19:50:35 GMT

VN's can do euthanasia as all it is is giving an IV injection. I think you do need to be told by the vet to do it though as euth juice is a POM-V.