rspca........

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:08:31 GMT

it is a difficult situation, and i understand your point, i have encountered a few situations were i know it is far more beneficial to keep on a clients good side for the wellbeing and safety of the animal, as obviously, to owners who are not the best of owners, being able to trust their vet is important. However its hard for me to put across what is happening here as i don't want to go into details just to be on the safe side, but i think if i did then the majority of nurses here would agree that it is in these dogs interests that the owner is reported. i know there are many different types of abuse/neglect and alot of reasons behind it from ignorance to sadistic tendancies and everything inbetween, this type of neglect to me is just not on, and a bugbear for me, as its being done purposefully for convienience as the animals in question are viewed as commodities, business produce basically, think along the lines of some puppy farm stories im sure you have all heard of/encountered and your not far off from what ive been seeing.

Re: rspca........

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:01:17 GMT

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]

It is a really tough situation!!

We had a man bring in a litter of pups to be vaccinated. They were crossbreeds and they were all illegally docked. I was in the consult room helping the vet and she bought up the subject and the guy denied that he had bred them and he had bought them to sell on. She told him to report the breeder and he got really shirty and he had blantently done it himself. Both myself and the vet (who was a locum) wanted to report him but the practice manager wouldn't let us. This made me really angry because if we didn't report him then no-one else would and he would just do it again. I didn't go into the job to keep clients happy, I did it to help animals.

[/quote]

yes and I understand that as well - but what would happen say if an owner had a docked puppy but owner was too scared to bring them in to the vets for vaccinations because they thought they would get into trouble so they dont bother with the vaccinations or anything else in fact that needs the vet to see the pup. Fast forward a few weeks and there is an outbreak of parvo.

I worked in a charity for years and sometimes yes you do see things that shouldnt happen but you have to weigh up carefully whether it is in that animals interest to speak out and if you do speak out how it will affect that animals future and your relationship with that owner. I personally prefer it if the owner continues to use the practice and bring their animals in - that way you can keep an eye on them and with time may be able to educate the owner a little. Some cases do need reporting but if you work as part of a team then it has to be a team decision

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:54:15 GMT

my thoughts exactly Kim, and why should we have to go home and feel like the guilty party for failing to give the animals a chance to be rescued? its really not right is it. i think the policy on reporting abuse could do with a bit of a upheaval myself!

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:52:08 GMT

i am more than willing to take responsibility for my actions (which for some reason makes it sound as though it is something i should not be doing when in terms of animal welfare its a fundamental fact that if i see evidence of neglect and suffering, it should be reported). My work does not so much work as a typical team workforce, if i decided to make a report, my colleagues would be fine for my to go ahead and do that if thats what i wanted to do, and i would feel the same if it was the other way around. I do not intend 'hide behind the team front' because yes, it is my decision, and i wholeheartedly believe i should make the report because its the right thing to do. I didnt do this job just to turn a blind eye to suffering, and i have to contradict my morals enough as it is (luckily enough, i find the job satifaction i get makes this worthwhile). my dilema is not really a case of wanting to be anonymous, if i was reporting as your avarage Joe then i would be happy to say exactly who i was, however reporting this could possibly jeopardise my job, and thats my concern.

Thankyou everyone for your input, its been helpfull in letting me weight up a few things, i will bear in mind your contributions, thanks again!

Re: rspca........

Kim Buckley — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:42:07 GMT

It is a really tough situation!!

Re: rspca........

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:36:47 GMT

[quote user="Polly SVN"]

/\ Sorry, ref. my above post I meant Sal! Not Kim! Dunno where I got that from...

[/quote]

yes I understood that but when you are working as part of a team and you as a single person decide to do what you think is right which may have far reaching consequences for others within your team and may not be in line with what other members of the team think or feel then I am afraid you have to take full responsibility for your actions and not hide behind the team 'front' if that makes sense

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:34:36 GMT

there is one vet who is the manager, he has not had any dealings with the dogs in question, but having worked for him for quite a long time, i know he would not be happy with making a report even if he had seen the evidence for himself.so no, he is not aware of the situation at all.

Our other vets are locum vets, they are short term, they agree with my suspicions as do my other colleagues that have seen/treated these dogs.

I agree with you 100%, i do not want to contradict my beliefs and i beleive the welfare of the dogs is the most important issue here, i was just hoping to come up with an idea that meant i could get these people investigated without causing any friction at work. i wish i could just report them as any person, not necessarily as a nurse, but as they ask for details of specific events etc i would not be able to make a comprehensive complaint posing as a member of the public.

This is the trouble with asking someone else to make the report, when the rspca ask for specific incidents etc and details of why you are reporting, what are they supposed to say? its impossible to do it that way unfortunately.

it is my view that i have a duty of care for the animals we treat, and any animals at all, and i don't think ill relax until ill at least brought it to the rspca's attention.

I was considering contacting a charity that deals with immoral breeding, i know they are about and mainly deal with puppy farms, and will occasionally go into places and buy dogs from the farms purely to get them out of the situation, i know this is not ideal, but perhaps an organisation like this could then bring it to the rspca's attention?

I may have a google search for organisations that may be able to help......

Re: rspca........

Polly P — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:29:23 GMT

/\ Sorry, ref. my above post I meant Sal! Not Kim! Dunno where I got that from...

Re: rspca........

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:26:05 GMT

I think you need to talk this through in detail with your colleagues - if it is obvious that the report has come from your veterinary practice then I feel that you should own up to it being you who made the report, if not it isnt fair on everybody else. If it is your decision to do this and you feel this is the right thing to be doing then I am afraid it is your name on the report.

Re: rspca........

Polly P — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:17:59 GMT

Kim I can totally underdstand your point, but (I may have got the wrong idea, correct me if I have) the bosses are aware of the situation but simply keeping out of it to keep their business- rather than it being a case of the bosses think the animals are fine and the nurse disagrees.

If that is the case, then I would think that it is the right thing to do, to contact the RSPCA- otherwise surely the OP is compramising their own beliefs in order to fit in with anothers, even when the welfare of an animal is at stake.

I mean I think ultimately it is a no win situation for the OP, whichever way she goes... It's down to personal choice and conscience, if there really is no other way-

Only thing I can think of, is asking someone else who is nothing to do with the practice to report the person? I know you say that certain things could only be known to someone who worked in the practice, but I am sure the RSPCA inspect breeders fairly regularly, and if they were to inspect and suspect something, presumably they'd get their own vets to investigate further, thereby likely coming upon the issue(s) for themselfs?

And you mention the reputation of the vet being the thing that is see nby the public- surely it's worse if the RSPCA found something wrong in animals that were regularly treated by ythe practice and it transpired that the practice had failed to alert them when they should?

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:16:00 GMT

i dont expect it will go down well with the manager (i dont think anyone else would be bothered, as i said, they agree mainly) but if i make a report, say who i am (and possibly the practice if i have to) they say you remain anonymous, so would they necessarily need to mention me in any way shape or form unless it went to court? they could say they are just following up a complaint (this lady is a breeder). Im in this job primarily because of animal welfare, and hope to be working in a charity in the future, so in my mind i think that they are my priority, and i believe they should be reported to give those animals a fighting chance to be taken away. then another part of me thinks many of the dogs will not be homeable which may well lead to euthanasia anyway if they are taken away!

i dont know what to do for the best.

Re: rspca........

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:02:24 GMT

[quote user="Polly SVN"]

That's right, the RSPCA don't pass on your details. So while it might be traced back to oyur practice simply because it had to be someone in posession of the veterinary knowledge, they would not be able to trace it further than that.

[/quote]

I can see this going down well with the practice - NOT and would understand completely if those at the top were to be seriously pissed off by this. If this indentifies the practice then it puts every single person working there under suspicion - even those that may not agree with your decision. This is the way to cause a helluva ruck in working relationships If you identify the practice then I am afraid you have to identify yourself. Even if you add the disclaimer that your views may not represent those of the practice it is the name of the practice that people will see

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:49:03 GMT

thats a very good point, thanks alot!

Re: rspca........

Polly P — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:43:58 GMT

I would make it clear to the RSPCA however, that you are doing this 'you personally' not 'you representing the practice' and make it clear and get confirmation from them that they are not to mention you in the practice as the point of contact- I can see how that might happen in error otherwise, them thinking it was you calling on behalf of the practice and not needing anonimity from your colleagues too.

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:16:16 GMT

the vets that have seen the bitches (the males are in good condition) agree completely, they are locums, the permenant vet does not get involved with rspca (and also has not seen these dogs). The breeder has proclaimed herself that the dogs are not pets but 'commodities'. the fact the dogs are brought in for treatment is the equivilant of someone MOTing their car before sale. Purely for their gain and not due to welfare concerns.

They are in a lot and i find it very upsetting, i would be disappointed in myself if i didn't report it (definately in the wrong job, should be doing rescue/non profit) but at the same time, i do not want to cause problems at my work. Very difficult. Initially it was just going to be anonymous, but of course i realised you cant do that .

If i make the complaint, with name etc, i believe the rspca do not pass on your details, so the person being investigated would be none the wiser as to who had made the report??

Re: rspca........

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:08:36 GMT

have been following this with interest - cant work out from the posts if the veterinary surgeons in the practice you work either dont agree with you that there is a welfare issue or agree that there is a welfare issue but choose not to get involved

without knowing what the welfare issue is the fact that the owner is bringing their pets into the surgery must show some degree of responsibility for their pets welfare? If they are scared off from bringing them in because they feel the practice have reported them to the RSPCA - not only do you risk landing yourself deep in the do -do and also the practice to boot but it might mean that these animals never see a vet again and then nobody can keep an eye on what is going on with them - and yes there is always a real possibility that the RSPCA may not agree with your opinion and that they decide to take no action.

Be careful

Re: rspca........

Doolally — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:00:34 GMT

Nightmare...I hope you manage to sort something

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:31:45 GMT

i am concerned about the animals welfare, however, having dealt with the client before (and the attitude) i know this would be something the breeder would fight all the way. In order to make a complaint (which involves the welfare of ten + dogs) i would have to say i was a nurse due to the nature of the complaint, also, rspca site does say you must give your details, dont think its possible to make up someones details. It is difficult to weight up, my concern is their welfare, however i am concerned that i have a job too! i agree that the rspca do not follow up anonymous reports. My colleagues do agree with my concerns, however management would be really angry to get involved in something like this due to it being someone bringing in a lot of business who would make things difficult for us. Nightmare. Just gona have to keep thinking and come up with a way of reporting it without getting myself in trouble. At the end of the day, the rspca may not agree with me or not find any evidence of neglect and take no further action, and the dogs will be in the same position and i will be in quite a bit of trouble :)

Re: rspca........

Doolally — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:39:08 GMT

Can you talk to your colleagues and take a general consensus of their views as they'll know the situation. Ultimately we all (vets and nurses) should have gone into this job with the welfare of animals as our main driving force and that should take precedent over all else.

Imagine how would you feel if you didn't do anything and the animal's were to die - and then it got out that the practice had concerns but didn't do anything about it.

I guess if you're really worried you could give false details? Obviously not a great thing to do but if it's a choice between that and not reporting it incase it comes back to you i know what i'd do

Re: rspca........

hayzie — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 15:25:18 GMT

i did contact the rcvs by email and they said the same to me, im convinced that the people should be investigated, but it would be quite easy to work out who made the report from the owners point of view. its a difficult situation, im really concerned about the animals and really think they need investigating as i think they are being severly neglected, and 'not able to display natural behaviour'. I dont think there is any abuse or cruelty as such (although neglect and cruelty to me are practically the same if its done knowingly). My boss is very against making reports and i think he would be very unhappy if it came back to the practice.

Horrible situation really :(

Re: rspca........

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 00:05:57 GMT

Humans fall under data protection... animals don't

Re: rspca........

Dippy — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 23:23:13 GMT

I was in the same position once and the practice I was in at the time advised me to phone the RCVS for advice from their legal dept first, which I did. I followed it to the letter, made my complaint and stated that I was breaching confidentiality on welfare grounds (which you are allowed to do if animal welfare is at stake although I would advise asking the RCVS or similar to confirm whether they agree your specific situation classes as sufficient welfare grounds and make a note of the person's name you speak to and exactly what they say). Then just phone the regular RSPCS cruelty tel no and explain the circumstances. You will have to give some personal details over the phone but the person being investigated will NOT be told where the complaint has come from by the RSPCS as they are also bound by confidentiality but depending on the nature of the complaint, if it relates to something you've seen in practice or have been told by the client and they remember the conversation, obviously it may be possible for them to work it out?

Re: rspca........

Polly P — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 18:07:19 GMT

While the RSPCA will keep it confidential, you can't make an anonymous report to them unless things have changed recently-

They will not investigate them unless you give your details, in case it's a malicious report.

Re: rspca........

albatross — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:27:07 GMT

I can understand reporting neighbours or somewhere you have visted socially, but where is the line drawn on a data confidentiality aspect if you as an employee report a client?????

Re: rspca........

Louisa Cocks — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:59:35 GMT

You can remain anonymous if you wish to, just call the headquarters and give them all the details, they are very helpful. I reported a neighbour at the beginning of summer for the terrible state she kept her animals in. I didnt want her to know it was me and they said all info like that was confidential. Alternatively if you have a decent inspector or ACO that you deal with regularly have a quiet word with them and ask them to visit your client, I have also done this on a couple of occasions with clients. Good luck.