'why vets need union assistance'

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sal the 1st — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:16:02 GMT

Ian I agree with pretty much all that you said, -would like to say employers trying to ban union members or not employing them in the first place, well as I said earlier its already happening (would be happy to discuss this privately). Yes if a union was introduced in all probability it wouldnt benefit those that were there at the inception but would be of more use to those that come after. But as an ex union member I dont see a union as an answer to the veterinary problem but I appreciate your thoughts nontheless.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:51:23 GMT

Wow, I an now that is a statement and a half......... will I pass the flak jacket now?

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Practice Manager — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:04:15 GMT

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As a Practice manager, member of the VPMA and a P.M. Consultant I have read with interest a lot of what is being said about unions. I believe that there are a number of points that need to be recognised and acknowledged in relation to this topic.

1. There is in this profession a problem group of individuals who make it difficult for everyone else. Some of them are Vet practice owners and some are employees.

2. In some practice’s some senior staff believe that they have the right to treat all junior staff, regardless of whether they are vets or nurses, like something they've wiped off the bottom of their shoe.

3. Behaviour that breaches UK employment law is happening in some practices and has been happening in those same practices for years.

What is worrying is that if pressed everyone can quote a horror story without hesitation as if this was nothing out of the ordinary.

When faced with such a common place acknowledgement of what the issues are you have to ask what has been done by the RCVS, BVNA etc. Unfortunately the answer is not enough. Before you all try to lynch me for that statement I am aware of all the good work that has been done by both organisations, but people have a tendency to avoid the difficult topics and decisions if they can because they don’t want the upset and grief it causes.

I’ve been in a union, been a union rep, and been a manager that has had to negotiate with a union. They do expect you to pay dues and there are some unions that are more interested in politics than their members. My over all experience of them however is that a union is there to protect their members when others won’t or can’t.

If you think a union will solve all your problems without you having to do anything then you are sadly mistaken. A union’s strength lies with its members standing together and voicing their opinions. The union goes to the employer and speaks up for ALL the members to help improve conditions for all staff and get an even playing field by national agreements. Where individuals have specific difficulties they are there to support, give advice and challenge employers where necessary.

None of this will be an easy ride if you unionise vets and nurses. Employers will resist and some will try to ban the membership of the union in their practices. You will have a difficult road to walk and more than likely it will be those that come after you that will benefit most fully from being a member of a union. But on balance though knowing what we all know about the veterinary industry, its difficult to conclude anything other than the fact that it is time for a proper union to support vets and nurses.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 19:23:56 GMT

Hi Sal, just had a look at that thread, and have to say it's the first I have seen of it..hmmmmmmmm and me on here all the time too, how the hell did I miss it.

I do vaguely remember being asked on the old site about a Vet and VN joint union, and my response was the same as yours in that it would cause a conflict of interests.

Anyway off to read that thread now

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sal the 1st — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 19:05:55 GMT

my contribution was given in a response to a request posted on here

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:27:33 GMT

Has anyone seen the piece in the VN times regarding vet/VN unions?? I personally dont remember being asked my opinion by said magazine or anyone else for that matter

The only comments were for the against........ where are the comments for the for?? hardly a balanced report.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:46:55 GMT

Yes Fi, think you are right they only give legal advice, and thanks sal for your balanced opinion on unions, I have no personal expereince with them but feel that when a nurse gets into industrial problems, because of our low wages, we cant afford the legal help required, you could be right about the union and subscription fees etc. will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Fiona Leathers — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:00:11 GMT

[quote user="mcboarder"]

I think its important we hear from the BVNA here to make it clear to all their members if indeed they do legally represent people.

[/quote]

I have taken this from the BVNA website

Legal Helpline

All BVNA members have access to a free legal helpline. This legal help line is manned by legal professionals and will answer questions requiring legal assistance in relation to any subject, not just employment.

Over the last 12 months, the legal help line is answered over 290 calls from BVNA members, over 70% of these were in relation to employment.

If you are a BVNA member and you need to ring the legal help line, telephone the BVNA office who will put you in touch with the right person. You will need to have your BVNA membership number ready when using the legal help line.

Reading through that, I would have thought that they will give you advice but not represent you in a court of law - for that you would need lawyer, solicitor, QC whatever! And they would need some form of payment. (My personal opinion - I may be wrong)

The website has all the information about member benefits on it, so it is well worth checking out what is available

http://www.bvna.org.uk/smartweb/membership/membership

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sal the 1st — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:21:41 GMT

Yes I think that is fair - people should be able to make informed decisions. I know we are not all the same (heaven forbid we should be!)

I am anti union because having been a member of 4 different unions at different times in my career I cannot hand on heart say that they have helped me when I needed it.

Employment advice - well every union I had membership of never really understood the veterinary profession. I was told by one who looked at my contract following a few problems with employer ' If you were fool enough to take a job with those conditions its no good bleating about it now!' To be honest I had better advice from CAB and ACAS and that was free!

A veterinary union? In theory a good idea - but in my opinion not practical. Suppose there is a problem in the workplace and the union is representing both a veterinary surgeon and a veterinary nurse - I really cannot see how there would not be a major conflict? Who would end up getting hurt? The success of any veterinary union is going to be as a result of

1) membership - membership = funds to keep the union running and in keeping the union running being able to support its members. How many people do you know (vets and nurses) who regularly have to pay fines for late payment of fees. Do you think a union is goingto be anymore successful at maintaing its income? How long do you think a union would survive with this in mind?

2) the veterinary profession actually recognising a union - its ok to say the union exists and has x numbers of members but if the RCVS or employers fail to recognise it then what is the point. This is why ,in my opinion, it is a waste of time fighting for a union when change could be more effectively brought about by changes to the Veterinary Surgeons Act - changes to the Act are not something the vet/employer could choose to ignore as they could with a union, and will be around a lot longer than a union that has the potential to go belly up

So how about joining an existing union? - as already mentioned , from my experience,they have little understanding of veterinary practice and there is also the possibility that if you join a general union you may be asked to take part in action that you dont necessarily agree with. If you dont take part you are not supporting the union and its members ( scab, black leg and other terms of endearment) - if you do take part you risk losing your job because your boss isnt interested in your union membership - just the fact that you werent at work.

I noticed mention that the nurses union has never called strike action - No they havnt and they never will. Most nurses enjoy a very cosy reputation, they are still seen by many of their patients to be impoverished angels ( and I am not saying that in some cases this reputation is deserved there are many, many nurses out there that still do their best and do care for the welfare of their patients). What I am saying is that public support can be very fickle, at the moment nurses have this healthy wholesome reputation. If they start to get a bit bolshy and decided to strike then their actions would make them no better than the average bod in the street.... and sympathy for them? well it would probably evaporate faster than a mornings dew!

Subscriptions - yes £20 per month might not seem a lot but lets put it into persperctive. If you live alone, like myself and your income is all that is coming into the house to pay the bills - then maybe that £20 is worth a bit more ( to me it equates to almost 1 weeks shopping)

Other people may have more favourable views regarding unions - these are mine. Not posted to upset or inflame anybody.

just a little more to add. If you do decide to become a union member it is often best to not mention this in application forms or at interview. I have been involved in the interview process before and have seen applications rejected just because the applicant was a union member. this is not restricted to unions either PETA and LACS are also not good associations to admit to being a member of. This shouldnt happen but sadly it does.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:18:40 GMT

Couldnt agree more Sal. I just want nurses to know what is available to them, this should not be taken or made personal. good luck with your mum.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Sal the 1st — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:07:44 GMT

Can we just calm down a little - and just accept that there are two differing opinions here before war breaks out (pretty please)

I do have some points to raise regarding union membership - but I also have to entertain my mother for the next couple of hours - gulp (only the 3rd time she has visited me in the flat in the 2 1/2 years I have been here.... doesnt bode well)

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:18:10 GMT

And l think l have made it clear that unions are self representing power and money hungry machines and as l am a VN with firsthand experience of them they are unwanted and unliked.
So it is only 20 and just how much does only mean to the average vn try again and get real that is gouging a wage.

You have a very strong union idealism in your family. I have no love or like of them [unions] they would have destroyed your (this) country several times over if they had not been stopped several times.

The veterinary world does not need unions EVER. All you are interested in is confrontation and legal fighting you make that clear all the way through that is why you and the like of that vet want it.

You harp on about legal yet it is there if needed as l have said. Oh dear l am sorry we are to pathetic to think for ourselves we need your nanny unions to do it all for us. There is more to that in this job bad wages and bad bosses are in all walks of life.
l have said and will say unions would destroy good and bad alike. It is not just me but many of us who say this because we have had experience of them. We have no rose coloured glasses they went a long time ago.

Funny l felt that it was better to think of how to improve this job and the veterinary world in general not rip it apart as you and that vet want to.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:42:25 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"] I was young and idealistic like you [/quote][quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]They gouge wages your family would have higher wages if unions got out of their lives[/quote]

I think its important we hear from the BVNA here to make it clear to all their members if indeed they do legally represent people. Caro as for me being young and Idealistic , thanks for the compliment, but I am neither. And if my husband stopped paying his union dues he would be all of 20 quid richer a month. You keep saying you will never agree to a union, I think you have made that abundantly clear, I am only trying to point out that there is no legal representation available to nurses, only advice. And I am sure you would agree that any body of workers should have access to affordable legal representation.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:46:35 GMT

No such thing as a good union you know the saying the only good ... is a dead... (chose ...) well that in this case is union.

They gouge wages your family would have higher wages if unions got out of their lives. The only time a union does any thing is what it gets out of it for themselves with power and money.

They have huge appetites to satisfy and they need victims to do it. Well l won't be a victim to a union again and l will do all l can to stop them. Having said that how exactly do you expect a one man business as the bulk of vets are to be able to support a union? They are unrealistic, and self centred. there is a lot of bad vets out there but there is also a lot of good ones and when the wonderful unions drive them to the wall who will pick up the pieces won't be your unions hanging around will loose them money they will move on.

I have personal experience of unions and know a lot of others who have as well and none of them have any good words to say about them, When the chips were down and they needed them they melted away. I also had need of something... my wages that they gouged. I wouldn't have joined if l had a choice but it was simple l needed to work so l had to have my wage gouged.

First time l was part of greyhound kennel staff world - the bad side of the vn job similar problems similar setup.

Guess what we were to small to make use of, thank god. I was young and idealistic like you and that male vet whatever his name is thats jawing on. l did not want a union just thought they could improve our lot.
The head kennel maid explained exactly what a union would bring and it wasn't good. We were saved from disaster thankfully by the unions own greed, and l learnt just how nasty and self centred unions are by their response.

It went downhill from there.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 00:03:01 GMT

My family are nurses (human) they have a brilliant union, and thanks to them they now have good pay and conditions after years of negotiation, and none of my family have EVER been on strike. They also get free legal advice and legal representation, without being extreme or taking a large chunk of their wages.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:50:16 GMT

A union is ONLY for its self. Yes to right l have had experience of them so l speak from a position of been there done that. Not allowed to work unless a large portion of a low wage went to them. And l had to work.

Always in trouble because l worked to hard and showed up their union workers.

not willing to back anyone unless there is something in it for them a lot of money something. Yes l have experience of unions.

If someone wants to go play with them then go do something else work wise that has a union in it and back of trying to muddy the waters for everyone who does not want unions.

There is the blinkered oh goodie unions will do so much for us, there is the cold hard reality that ALL unions want is power and money and they will ride over anyone to get it. Ask people that have unions in their work[place what happens if they want to work and the scum calls a strike.

And if a strike was called would you walk out and leave your patients? l sure as hell wont. Mind you l wont belong to any of the unions but they would do all they could to cause a lot of problems for me A) because l would never join B) cause l would ignore them and ALL they stand for C) Because l would NEVER agree to whatever they agreed to unless l was involved in the discussion and as that will never happen ...D) l would never strike ESPECIALY if some scummy union tried to get me to strike.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:06:49 GMT

Noodle a vn union would be for students too.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Noodle — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:51:31 GMT

I find this really interesting... I have never been part of a union, and from the little I know of them, like the idea of a VN union, especially as someone says, if there are problems with your employers.

Why are you people who have experience of them, so anti-unions?

I'm just sitting on the fence here and pondering btw As an SVN any VN union prob wouldn't affect me anyway lol!

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:40:35 GMT

Please note .... l do not have strong feelings against unions.... < see my halo is shiny (will just hide the glue)

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:34:03 GMT

If you belong to bvna you get legal help and they cover you with all legal matters.

unions are not fit to wipe my a**e as far as l am concerned. Just about ended laughing hysterically at the comments unions care about their staff.

l just wish there was a deep enough pit l could put all politicans and unions and a few others in (but been told do not discuiss religion and politics in the same breath) then cover them over to quietly rot.

I would NEVER let a union speak for me in ANY matter. Nor would l want them muddying the waters in any place l work.

Lets face we do not need their influence in ANY place we work looking after THEIR interests. Lots of employers are total but if you add a union to the mix then OMG you will really see the rot set in.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Jacqueline Gallacher — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:44:21 GMT

I am all for a union, we could certainly be doing with one and hopefully the same one for vets and nurses. As for Insurance from your employer, yes that covers you if a client wants to sue you but what happens if your problems are with your employer? how many nurses can afford a lawyer to represent them? you will find that the only representatives you are allowed in any disciplinary meeting are union reps or a colleague, I know who I would want, for various obvious reasons. As for the BVNA I am sure they have our best interests at heart .but they cannot actually pyhsically and legally represent us (like a union would) in an industrial dispute. If we have a union then all these lucky nurses who dont believe we need one dont need to join and anyone who wishes to have legal representation not just advice can join the union. Until it happens I would advise everyone to tick the box on your house insurance which covers you for legal representation even in an industrial dispute, it doesnt cost any extra and could be a real life saver if ever you are unfortunate enough to need it. Lets face it we need a union to prevent problems and to help us deal with them if they arise , not every nurse is lucky enough to have great employers.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

VNing 25yrs — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:47:09 GMT

Ditto from me! I love my job and for decades have never felt I made the wrong choice in my profession. I have worked for fantastic people and would worry that a union would create a divide amongst nurses/ vets/practice managers/support staff...., and that I will do everything to avoid. In a past life I was part of a union, where the collective voice was heard and if you disagreed on any issue, you were dragged into line!

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Kirstie Sherman — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:58:30 GMT

Hi Posters,

There are no plans for the BVNA to join a union, some of you may be glad to hear. Great to hear that lots of you find the legal helpline useful also.

Indemnity insurance was withdrawn as a membership benefit as we found that all nurses in practice (including locums) were more than adequately covered by their practice indemnity insurance.

Kirstie Shield

BVNA Council Member

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

ginny — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:07:02 GMT

I agree - i would not be happy with the BVNA joining a union on my behalf. I admit my experience with unions isnt first hand and comes from family and friends - they cost money, make difficulties and dont help.

Anyone with employment problems should contact the CAB - they can and will help you.

I've contacted the BVNA legal helpline a few times (from both sides of the fence!) and they have been very good - sadly they are no longer 24 hour. I was a bit cross when BVNA stopped the legal insurance though - that was one of the main reason for being a member.

Re: 'why vets need union assistance'

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:12:34 GMT

I did not join nor would l stay in the bvna if they joined any union. l have no wish for some scummy union to represent me in ANY way thanks and l would not be happy if bnva "joined" one as l belong to them for the legal aid and that l would end up loosing as l would not rejoin.

Further more there is your assumption on the "all" l for one am part of the great unwashed "all" (QVN) and you can see my sentiments on unions. I speak for myself and will honor no collective anything. You want to go play with a union feel free do not try and drag the rest of us in. I will fight any union all the way to hell and back and not allow them to ruin my life.