Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 30 Mar 2019 20:44:02 GMT

I know improve international offer a POCUS course for nurses

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

apache — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 17:09:57 GMT

[quote user="Gemma Read"] We were also taught how to take ultrasound guided biopsies, however I have yet to get round to confirming if we can legally do these. [/quote]

I don't belive so as you would be entering a body cavity. I suppose if it was something like a superficial lymph node or pocket of puss in a body wall abscess it would be ok.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Gemma Read — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 14:34:37 GMT

I actually do think with the correct training that registered veterinary nurses should utilise ultrasound in the right circumstances.

I actually did the BSAVA merit award in diagnostic imaging last year, we got taught how to do A-FAST and T-FAST scans in emergencie, and have used them in a few situations since, and my practice actively encourages it. We were also taught how to take ultrasound guided biopsies, however I have yet to get round to confirming if we can legally do these.

Like others have said, not for diagnostic purposes, but simply identifying a pregnancy or fluid in the abdomen or thorax.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

V E S — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 20:38:32 GMT

Oops sorry - I was trying to say I don't think we should use ultrasound for diagnosis reasons. I think for measuring bladder size is ok though, great alternative to palpation esp for unamenable cats !

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 20:14:15 GMT

[quote user="Victoria Stearman"]

No, though I used ultrasound a lot in referral to determine bladder size of patients e.g urology/neurology cases.

[/quote]

not really understanding that statement? Are you saying you used to do ultrasounds but don't think you should have been doing them?

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 20:07:41 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]

I got verbally told off by a vet when I identified fleas on a patient.

Apparently I "can only say I have identified flea like insects"

[/quote]

Yep I can identify with that and the vet I was working with usually ticked me off in front of the client - which probably pleased him but didn't do a right lot for the practice image

I got round it in the finish by saying ' I've noticed x has picked up a few little visitors - have you used a flea treatment recently? So I never directly said their animal had fleas but made the suggestion that they would benefit from a flea tx.

Pleased to say I don't work at that practice anymore

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

V E S — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 18:56:40 GMT

No, though I used ultrasound a lot in referral to determine bladder size of patients e.g urology/neurology cases.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

David Gibbins — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 17:57:21 GMT

I got verbally told off by a vet when I identified fleas on a patient.

Apparently I "can only say I have identified flea like insects"

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Christina Wong — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 21:01:18 GMT

I went to cpd last year and they said that we can do ultrasound but obviously not diagnose but we can say if they are pregnant or not

At my practice we are encouraged to 'have a play' with the probe the more we know the better we understand and the better we nurse (not to say we aren't already amazing nurses)

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Chris Peters — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 17:27:42 GMT

Wow i have seemed to have created a great discussion.

I have now had a chat to my head nurse (and yes i am a RVN) and she believes it could be a very good idea and something that would be useful in our practice.

There is even a course that is specifically for veterinary nurses that I will be going on. I have provided the link below for anyone who is interested.

https://www.improveinternational.com/uk/course/ultrasound-triage-for-the-emergency-patient/

Thanks for some of the positive comments. I was quite surpised about all the negative comments, feel like a lot of people under value how much we nurses can actually do.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:52:45 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton "]

Many of the CPD course providers offer ultrasound courses for vets and I don’t see why these couldn’t be tailored to suit the needs of the veterinary nurse. Hopefully with the new post grad qualifications one of these may include ultrasound

[/quote]

There is no reason why the nurses can't tag along and just take from it what they need to know - it doesnt even need to be tailored to suit nurses - we don't always need the demarcation this is for vets or this is for nurses unless it is specialist - I know the cpd providers would prefer it this way sometimes as it then becomes 2 fees instead of one. We got a new ultrasound machine a few years back and the company did a days cpd inhouse. I just joined in as much as I could

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:36:28 GMT

I am somebody who is interested in ultrasonography and like you say I do not see any reason why nurses could't train in this area and report back findings. I spent 6months of my own time doing an extended 'work experience' on the human side and I learnt a lot - but what I learnt so long ago has been so under used since I have probably forgotten most of it.

I think the most important thing is that vets and nurses work together as a team and that benefits everybody. I just wonder sometimes how many thousand £ are spent every year on cpd that never actually gets used because people don't go on to 'develop' anything they have learnt

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:26:41 GMT

of course I would tell an owner their pet had fleas - and have done. But I have also been reprimanded in the past for telling somebody that their cat had ear mites , because 'it is not your place to diagnose'- its like walking a very fine tightrope sometimes. I have sent people over from nurse to vet consult quite a few times over the years knowing that there is something very wrong with their pet with ' I think we will let the vet take a look at this' (anal gland prob that was a tumour in the days when I was still allowed to empty them internally- wonder how many of them get missed now? diabetics by the bucket full, dogs/cats that are 'a bit wormy' and actually have an abdominal mass, I have even dared to suggest rads to a vet who was treating a cat for dog attack with this result

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

apache — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 23:13:12 GMT

To clarify when I said about lay scanning of dogs and sheep I didn't mean in our practice. I was pointing out it goes on.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I am not saying that nurses should diagnose, I wouldn't dare, its not my place - but really I don't see this as any different from a nurse or nurses taking xrays at the request of a vet , or maybe we shouldn't be doing that either?[/quote]

I think the concept that a nurse cannot 'diagnose' is rather ridiculous when you think about it. Are you really telling me that you can't diagnose a flea infestation? Ridiculously you can recognise it in your own animal but not one at work. We need to get over ourselves and realise this is very much in the nurse sphere and shouldn't require vet involvement whatsoever (other than perhaps working in a practice so backup in the unlikely event of an adverse reaction or need for a 2nd opinion).

A nurse using the ultrasound, freezing some images for the vet to interpret wouldn't work. What we need is a framework where nurses can train and become a veterinary sonographer. No reason they cannot report back to the vet that the gall bladder is enlarged and liver architecture hyperechoic. No reason they can't report back there is a 60mm splenic mass. That's not diagnosing and it's leaving the treatment of the condition to the vet. The nurse isn't going to be going on and 'treating' the problem.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I'm not being funny guys but all those giving it big ones and saying how fantastic nurses are and how its the vets and the RCVS holding us back from realising our full potential- how much of this is actually a result of what we are doing to ourselves?[/quote]

Agree with you there 100%

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

WelshyNurse — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:32:32 GMT

Xrays are different, you are simply taking a picture.

Scans can change course multiple times, depending what the vet sees.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:56:19 GMT

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Nicola Smith — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:24:32 GMT

I went to a bvna lecture a couple of years ago and she spoke about nurses scanning for pregnancies but was also very enthusiastic about scanning for FAF in emergencies and said that wasn't a diagnosis merely identifying the fluid was there.

There are many members of public in my area advertising themselves as fully qualified scanners - I did a Google myself and you can do a pregnancy scanning course for about £150 which can be all.online so not even an attendance course and they then offer a more advanced course which is concerning as they won't elaborate on what they cover in that!!

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:14:05 GMT

We can learn to radiograph and perform CT/MR scans so why can’t we learn to ultrasound. It’s a skill that can be learnt with practice. The vet can then review our images obtained. I don’t see an issue with nurses learning to ultrasound. I know of nurses that scan for FAF in the emergency patient.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:34:44 GMT

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]

Lay staff scanning

[/quote]

I assumed we were talking qualified nurses here? But Apache is correct in that lay persons are out there scanning sheep. Don't confuse the term lay persons with lay staff. And there are breeders out there scanning bitches - so are we saying that a nurse who has trained, knows (or hopefully should know) a bit more about anatomy than the average breeder and should have at least a basic understanding of what an ultrasound machine is and may even have attended CPD on ultrasonography would be less capable?

I am not saying that nurses should diagnose, I wouldn't dare, its not my place - but really I don't see this as any different from a nurse or nurses taking xrays at the request of a vet , or maybe we shouldn't be doing that either?

I'm not being funny guys but all those giving it big ones and saying how fantastic nurses are and how its the vets and the RCVS holding us back from realising our full potential- how much of this is actually a result of what we are doing to ourselves?

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Denise Cooke — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:20:24 GMT

Small animal practice a no. Not sure on large animal practice

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

WelshyNurse — Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:55:02 GMT

Lay staff scanning

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

apache — Wed, 22 Aug 2018 23:34:35 GMT

And yet we have lay people scanning bitches and sheep for pregnancy.

I hope it is one of the advanced nursing functions currently been discussed by the RCVS.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

WelshyNurse — Wed, 22 Aug 2018 18:34:50 GMT

I would also say no.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

Chris Peters — Wed, 22 Aug 2018 17:41:51 GMT

Our ultrasound records what you are looking at, so it would be a mixture of film and stills. I was thinking that it might be helpful more in an emergency basis or if it is a really busy day. So the vet could just ask a nurse to say for example can you scan this dogs Liver/kidneys.

RE: Can Nurses do Ultrasounds?

jojofruits — Wed, 22 Aug 2018 17:26:39 GMT

I have to say I think no

so much more is seen from the living breathing ultrasound than the pictures.. and you would need to be able to competently recognise what to take stills of in the first place