Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

RE: Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

Susanna Taylor — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:09:09 GMT

Contact AAS. They are an Australian based company. (they make the darvall). Colin will be able to help with further kit and info.

RE: Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

Alana Dent — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:03:37 GMT

Hi Susanna, thanks for all the info!

We have (but currently do not use on the <10kg) the Darvell circuit, and do not seem to have TPiece or Mini lacks.
I am pleased to hear that the use of a bain is not detrimental to the patients, but I have noted here the flow rates are also not as recommended - so this is another worry with the extra resistance and the low flow rates.

We do not have Capnograph (charity clinic so may not be able to change that in the near future) but we do have BP monitoring - when it is used!!!

I have moved to this clinic in to a training role, so will be able to amend practices to what is best practice so really appreciate your feedback!!

RE: Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

Susanna Taylor — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:17:16 GMT

Hi Alana

Wherever you look you will see different things stated about breathing systems. It can be a grey area and often routed in tradition.

The Bain and the T peice work in virtually the exact same way, with the size of the bag and tubing being the main difference. It is worth remembering that when naming systems...

The size of a system, along with valves and inner surface of the tubing (smooth or corrugated) changes the resistance of a system.

A standard Bain, with corrugated tubing, a 2L bag and APL valve has a much higher resistance than a T piece for a animal under 10kg. However, that is not to say that a under 10kg CANNOT breath through it, just that the T piece is easier/better.

In the UK it is commonly taught that Bains are for over 10kg (ish) and T piece is for under 10. We have always had easy access to both. Due to the high flow rate needed for a Bain, the upper limit is often restricted to 25kg ish but with costs and flow metre limits aside a much larger animal can use a bain (remember - they were invented for humans not animals!)

So, what you are seeing happening is not as such 'wrong', but could be improved upon with the use of a lower resistance system. i.e. t piece, mini lack, Darvall system with smooth bore tubing

The best way to tell if a breathing system is suitable is not it through close monitoring - capnography, blood gases, spirometry.

On a side note - here in Hong Kong, a lot of people use a standard sort of circle on cats too! :-o

Hope that helps a bit. Ask away if not!

RE: Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 19:51:15 GMT

more info.

a deluxe Bain co axial circuit , disposable, from JAK Vet supplies is recommended for 10kg bwt plus.

http://www.jakmarketing.co.uk/semi-disposable-deluxe-bain-coaxial-circuit

Deluxe Bain Coaxial Circuit Semi Disposable

Product Code: 01-0655

Fresh gas is supplied through the narrow inner tube, expired gas travels via outer tube, fresh gas is warmed by the expired gas.

Fresh gas flow rate 2 to 2.5 times the patient’s minute volume.

Patient weight: 10 kilo plus.

RE: Nursing abroad, where the use of Bains in Cats is standard??!!

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:56:39 GMT

http://asevet.com/resources/circuits/bain.htm

http://www.vetronicservices.com/downloads/talks/fub9xknzUnderstanding_Anaesthetic_Circuits.pdf

http://www.burtonsveterinary.com/products/anaesthesia/anaesthetic-circuits/bain-circuits.html

Have a read . . .

Hope this helps you.

I agree, I always thought Bain was for over 10kg (all the ones I've used have been 10kg +) however the research I've done (as above) indicates that this is not necessarily the case as I'm discovering variations on the theme. However, it is a circuit that does need a higher gas flow rate so I agree, if that's 'insanely high' then the practice isn't the best, if not for the patient, then certainly for the excessive use of oxygen.

Ali h