DDVAP

Re: DDVAP

Emma Bartlett — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 08:09:49 GMT

[quote user="johannapage"]

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the replies - update with her.....

Ive spoken to the referal vets we use and they were as useful as a chocolate teapot - we've started her off on 40mg prozac SID and limiting her water slightly.

She's much calmer, the accidents havent stopped completly but have certainly reduced.

Really worried still as we have bought a new house, will be moving in January and worried its going to stress her out again.

She is a rescue dog anyway - I had her at 12 weeks and think the damage was already done. she lives off her nerves, is very jumpy and anxious, has settled so much more since my partner and I moved intogether and lives with my other dog and my partners dog.

I believe she has been beaten/hit as she is very headshy and hates it when people shout.

I just dont know what else to do!

[/quote]

I took on a rescue girl at the end of August. She is 7 and is head shy and nervous and if you make any sudden movements she cowers and squeals. When I first got her, as soon as she found anything stressful she would instantly vomit. I took her to see a Tellington Touch (TTouch) practitioner and she gave me lots of advice and confidence building exercises to do with her along with using bodywraps and a thundershirt and now she is like a different dog and doing really well. The vomiting stopped within a week and she is a lot more relaxed generally and I have even had a few play bows out of her!!

Re: DDVAP

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:37:03 GMT

[quote user="johannapage"]

Ive spoken to the referal vets we use and they were as useful as a chocolate teapot -

[/quote]

Completely off topic, but it turns out you *can* brew tea in a chocolate teapot. (I had to google exactly how useful a chocolate teapot is!)

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/kitchenscience/exp/how-useless-is-a-chocolate-teapot/

Glad the symptoms are improving, good luck!

Re: DDVAP

johannapage — Sat, 07 Dec 2013 22:08:03 GMT

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the replies - update with her.....

Ive spoken to the referal vets we use and they were as useful as a chocolate teapot - we've started her off on 40mg prozac SID and limiting her water slightly.

She's much calmer, the accidents havent stopped completly but have certainly reduced.

Really worried still as we have bought a new house, will be moving in January and worried its going to stress her out again.

I believe she has been beaten/hit as she is very headshy and hates it when people shout.

I just dont know what else to do!

Re: DDVAP

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:05:35 GMT

Sounds like an interesting case - are you any closer to an answer??

Just wondering - have you tried adding a bit of salt (NaCl obviously - not LOsalt) to the diet? Dogs that have been PUPD for a while, regardless of cause, can have medullary washout. I've had a few cases that have been sorted after a few days on salt. (Make sure cardiac and renal parameters AOK 1st, obviously!)

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/ua-rout/usg.htm

Re: DDVAP

Sara Kendall — Tue, 26 Nov 2013 12:57:53 GMT

Hi Jo,

It was 2 years ago, but we did have a client who was using DDAVP.

The patient was a 6 yr old GSD. Similar story to yours; lots and lots of tests but no solid diagnosis. After many conversations with the lab specialists we suspected diabetes insipidus. He was put onto DDAVP to try and confirm the insipidus diagnosis and we had good results. The drinking reduced and the owner was much happier.

Hope that helps

Sara

Re: DDVAP

funkyfish — Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:27:50 GMT

My GSP x had stress induced psycogenic PU?PD. I used a travel water bowl to limit his drinking (lots of water in it but he could only see a little bit) it helped a lot. Stopped him guzzling water. It is a well known behaviour problem.

Re: DDVAP

elaine elder — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:25:54 GMT

Yeah this definately needs more investigation from a specialist. The urine specific gravity is too high for DI! The excess drinking can be behavioural. Does she have frequent accidents in the house? Have you ruled out ectopic ureters? Is she docked? X

Re: DDVAP

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:29:46 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

Bit of a random answer this one - but have you tried Metacam? I have read that some vets report seeing a cessation of PU/PD when pain relief is on board. The polydipsia is a thought to be the dog's 'distraction' behaviour from pain (and of course you then get the resulting polyuria...). Calling Mark (Hedberg) have you heard of this??

[/quote]

Hi Alison! Thanks for the shout-out, I have heard of this, but i have only heard of it very anecdotally; two letters in the Vet Record do not a study make! Certainly I can see the logic; pain can cause stress, and stress hormone can cause polyuria, but I would be very very careful about giving NSAID without a very clear picture of renal function. I would be ringing my local referral diplomate for advice on this one as I don't feel qualified to give an opinion!

As far as I know there is NO formal evidence for this; while it may work perfectly well in certain cases, i haven't tried it myself so I can't recommend it. Not saying it's a good or bad idea, just that I don't have hard evidence or the personal experience for or against it.

(Please note that I speak as a humble GP and not an internal med specialist.)

Re: DDVAP

Sal the 1st — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:59:26 GMT

Have you changed the diet at all before this happened? If you feed a wet food instead of dry does she still have the same thirst? Was there anything else you noticed prior to this starting? Was this a gradual increase in fluid intake or sudden onset?

Sorry lots of questions

Re: DDVAP

Louise B — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 10:57:50 GMT

How is your dog otherwise? Health wise? Behaviourally? How is the extra drinking stressing him, the others or you and your partner out? Is it because the dog is eliminating round the house now or are there other issues?

It is known that some dogs will become PU/PD if stressed (chronic usually) for some reason. Is your dog a relaxed or nervous dog? Relationship with rest of the household? Any environmental changes around the time of this behaviour starting to occur? Are some days or times of the day worse than others? Any other behaviours noted that strike you as odd or indicative of problems?

Does the specific gravity fluctuation because you withhold water sometimes (e.g. at night, or while in a cage at work, etc) or does it fluctuate because the amount drunk differs a lot from day to day? Is the sp. grav. trend to be upwards over time, downwards, varies but no trend, etc. Worth plotting those (easier than keeping a water diary in a multiple dog household) over time and keeping a behaviour diary if any behavioural component is noted. I knew a guinea pig once that was severely PU/PD/very low specific gravity - but when hospitalised it would normalise after a day or so. Turns out it was being housed with another male guinea pig and the drinking was a stress response. Split from the other guinea pig and the drinking returned to normal.

Re: DDVAP

Louise B — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 10:43:04 GMT

Just a thought...

Could your dog have leptospirosis? There is an atypical form in which they can only have signs of PU/PD/reduced specific gravity.

My dog recently went transiently PU/PD (specific gravity of 1.001 - 1.020) so I went into overdrive researching this. I had his urine PCR'd for lepto (was clear) as one of the emerging serovar strains in dogs is endemic in the UK pig population (I own pigs and the dogs hangout at the smallholding). I think my dog's PU/PD was due to me inadvertantly feeding some raw thyroid gland (I feed a raw diet - leftover animal 'bits' from smallholding animals killed for meat but not sold at market - but normally dissect out the thyroid gland). This hasn't been proven and is just a 'Louise theory' but I put him on a thyroid gland exclusion diet and the PU/PD cleared up. Thyroid gland diet toxiticity is documented in dogs and humans fed thyroid gland as a big part of the diet. There are other possibilities though but his urine biochemistry/culture/microscopy/pcr for lepto/blood biochemistry (not T4 as we didn't test for this), haematology and electrolytes all came back normal.

Re: DDVAP

Emma Bartlett — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 08:46:26 GMT

I took on my vets dog with DI as I had a more stable lifestyle (he is a farm vet and does lots of on call etc) I used to give her DDVAP nasal drops as eye drops twice daily and she would remind me if I was late giving her the drops. We thought the DI was caused by head trauma as she was left at the surgery following a head injury including a fractured jaw.

Have you done a water deprivation test? Or could you do a ddvap trial?

Re: DDVAP

Steph Worsley — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:41:52 GMT

to be honest it actually sounds more like primary polydipsia than DI especially with such concentrated urine SG's so I wouldn't be giving DDAVP.

Primary polydipsia is often seen in hyperactive young dogs. has he been left alone longer than before it started?

I would recommend a decent abdominal ultrasound as next diagnostic step though in case there is a pyelonephritis as some cases don't have any increase in urea/crea.

I'm presuming she has had a very thorough clinical examination as well to make sure she doesn't have any obvious pain anywhere.

If your vets are stumped or want a bit of help with her case then I'm sure the referral centre you send you medical cases to would be more than happy to give advice as well

Re: DDVAP

johannapage — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:19:58 GMT

Also need to add she was spayed in April at about 12mths old BEFORE her first season

I have two other dogs so limiting water isn't an option as my other two dogs won't tolerate that - on the other hand seperating her isnt fair and will stress her out more

Re: DDVAP

johannapage — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:18:13 GMT

ok we have done.....

Full Biochemistry

Electrolytes

Haematology

ATCH Stim

Bile Acids

Full Urinalysis (Culture, sens, microscopy)

Im sure there is another we did but can't think off the top of my head!

She is fed a complete kibble diet, and everything was totally within normal limits the T4, the SG was 1.020 and to try and rule out DI this has been tested loads - always 1,015 or higher - sometimes gets to 1.040

Re: DDVAP

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:16:09 GMT

Hi,

Has he been diagnosed with DI? Cannot answer re administration of Desmopressin in a dog that hasn't been diagnosed with DI... sorry, however if not...

On the other hand I have read about a water restriction programme as recommendation by a veterinary behaviourist for a patient with a pathological desire to lick at almost anything (from pebbles, to the wall, to the floor but with the main focus of lapping at water). A strictly monitored volume of water was offered on a daily basis to ensure patient was getting enough water for normal function, hand in hand with a behaviour modification programme. Very intense, but it did eventually work to a great degree - (it was a long term project this particular patient as he had other obsessive behaviour issues.

Hope my meanderings are of some use... good luck and fingers crossed you can find a way through for your lad or lass.

Ali h

Re: DDVAP

Steph Worsley — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:07:31 GMT

you say you've done every medical test.....which ones exactly?

Re: DDVAP

Louise B — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:01:52 GMT

Have you carried out a thyroid test? Do you feed a raw diet? I am assuming the specific gravity was really low although you say it all came back normal.