disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

shakira miles — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:20:54 GMT

Hiya, i know exactly what you mean, I have locumed in amny areas and seen awful and poor quality care of many patients, and no one bats an eyelid, I just go home and rage about it!

I would maybe write to the Vn times? unsure if the company name can be used, however I agree something should be done. Being a proud VN is so important to me and I refuse to work for places with poor patient quality.

I agree talking to the practice manager and head VN is vital, however I can imagine it would get heated!

Its hard enough as a lay person leaving your pet somewhere for treatment but knowing that you are a profeesional the care should have been even better. they deserve to be embarrssed and taking over £600 is bad enough but lack of care is just unaccaptable.

I really hope that you do manage to dom something about it, your and our Vn voices must be heard!

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Vicky RVN — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:29:47 GMT

Ok I agree with what people have said, they are just trying to help and biting heads off is not the way to thank them! And having attitude when people ask how your cat is doing is not ok, they are showing concern. You are obviously upset and angry but please do not take it out on the people you are asking for help. Will not get you anywhere i'm afraid. With regards to hospital records, I know when you only have 2 members of staff in the building and you have more inpatients than you can count on one hand, along with the phone going and emergency surgery, no you don't have time to fill out the hospital charts fully, but that doesn't mean you aren't taking mental note of what the animal is doing. And with regards to urine I know recently I was nursing a cat who had the habit of sitting in it's litter tray, even when it had used it. So yes it got covered in urine. Did we clean it daily? Yes, but it still wasn't perfectly clean as it was constantly in the tray and we couldn't fully bath it without stressing it out so just had to clean it as best we could. This may not be what has happened with your cat but it is just a suggestion as to what can happen. I want to ask how your cat is doing now? But please do not shot me down in flames.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Lor12 — Mon, 07 Jan 2013 22:06:50 GMT

Hi Stacey, I dont have any advice for you on how to proceed I'm afraid but I wanted to put across my sympathy to you at this horrible time and I can only imagine how you must be feeling.

We all think the world of our pets, I know I do mine and it's clear you do too, we want the best for them so something like this is incredibly upsetting and with her ill health as well its a double whammy for you at the moment.

I just wanted to send you and your little one my best and I hope she is improving

xxxx

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Angiy Michael — Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:55:25 GMT

I think the gist of this is; of course you are upset , of course you feel angry with the practice , of course the possibilities offered by others are not excuses (just possible explanations). However .. please stop biting everyone's heads off when they are trying to offer you some constructive advice and be helpful ..that is after all what you asked for..instead you are responding to everyone like they personally are the individuals who perpetrated your cat's treatment . I hope your cat is as well as possible and wish you success with deciding on a course of action..and learning not to shout so much X

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Victoria Nielsen RVN — Sun, 06 Jan 2013 20:37:06 GMT

[quote user="staceyvn"]

you know what thank you so much finally someone who can see where im coming from - i just got the impression from other posts that defending the practice in question was more important - yeah perhaps i have come across in the wrong way but im a human being and not everyone is meek and mild i was absolutely furious with the reply i received in response to my complaint - i truely welcome your advice !! i only wish i could upload or show the hospitalisation sheets and hx - i totally understand vets can be naughty at recording parameters etc - iv not seen one in my place do it its down to the nursing team - i dont care how busy you are if your standards have slipped to the level that i have seen my cat receive then why not get a locum or lower your workload??? someone was remarking about where i have worked and i can tell you from a stint at a pdsa which was horrendously busy the inpatients were kept clean tidy and records were kept up to date - i just dont think its right either that there was no apology or suggestion that their standards/protocols would be revised so how many other animals in there are receiving the same level of "care"?? surely as vn/rvn's we have a moral obligation to protect animals from rubbish standards, why does it seem wrong to speak out?? at least i can say that my patients receive a very high standard of care i ensure ier's physiotherapy grooming regimes are put in place for each animal and that they are happy during their stay - again many thanks for seeing things from my prospective much appreciated :-)

[/quote]

Obviously there are protocols in place regarding complaints, so if you have written a letter of complaint, allow 7 working days for them to respond, which they obviously have done. If it is not to your satisfaction, if there is not a Head Office, then contact the RCVS regarding what to do next and provide them with the evidence you have to hand. They will be able to give you advice. Or the VDS?

I hope your cat is comfortable. My thoughts are with you.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:32:44 GMT

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:12:12 GMT

[quote user="staceyvn"]

so let me claifiy this....being understaffed or run off your feet is a free pass to leave ur inpatients in a poor state of hygiene or fail to take a nano second to tick a box that says "urinated" or "eaten" ...absolutely laughable!

[/quote]

I don't think that is what anyone is saying. I think the point is that these things might partly explain what has happened, not excuse it.

I think if I was in the same situation, I would feel that a trust had been broken, and there would be no way to repair the relationship with the practice. So I would move immediately. I'm not sure complaining to the practice would serve much purpose. I would expect them to be defensive, and anyway, what could they do to restore my faith? Probably not much.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Louise B — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:00:46 GMT

I can see that you are really upset (and I would be upset too if I thought my cat had not been cared for adequately) but you are coming across in such an aggressive way to several vetnurse.co.uk regulars that are trying to help and advise you. I am sorry that their advice isn't what you want to hear, but at least they are trying. You are simply going to alienate people that you might one day want help from if you carry on in such affronted manner. BTW, I tried to send you a private message but your settings aren't set to allow private messages.

Nobody on here is going to join you in an open critique of a veterinary practice and their staff. To do so would not be professional and would be against the code of conduct for vet nurses. That does not necessarily mean that people don't agree or sympathise with you.

Why don't you look at the PSS / clinical governance stuff re: the RCVS? Don't practices have to keep hospital inpatient records to comply? Maybe you are also coming across as aggressive, frustrated and unreasoned in your dealings with the practice too and that this is blocking the channels of communication between you and them as well? Speaking as a fellow hot head who finds it very difficult not to explode when my pets well being is at stake, I can tell you now that I get further when I stay calm, polite and reasoned (when I manage to ). Good luck with getting an agreeable resolution to this and change vet practices ASAP as we all know how important it is to believe in your vet/vet team. I note that the practice in question is short staffed at the moment so may be their nurses are struggling workload wise at the moment I agree re: records though as a nurse that was nearly taken to the RCVS several years ago after a GDV died at the end of a 2 hour surgery. I was seriously stressed as I had about 3 observations on the g/a chart - due to not having enough arms to record things, monitor, assist the vet and answer the phone. I dropped the one thing that I could do and that was record keeping. I keep records now - even if the vet has to wait - as risking losing my 'R' is too great a worry. Maybe your letter will help to shake up the nursing team somewhat - especially in the light of clinical governance - which is no bad thing and keeps us all on our toes.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 20:49:53 GMT

[quote user="staceyvn"]

i am aware of how to constuct a letter of complaint

[/quote]

As am I, Stacy, but I would still find Mark's post very helpful, if only because it was a very comprehensive reminder of all the things to include. A small thank you for the thought he obviously put into his post would have been nice!

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 20:34:54 GMT

actually no she is not she has chronic pancreatitis which is aggravating her diabetes so if no response to supportive tx soon will be a pts

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 20:28:25 GMT

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 20:25:23 GMT

i am aware of how to constuct a letter of complaint and have done so but received no apology only an excuse as to why on either clinical records or hosp sheets barely any information has been recorded the other issues i raised were simply met with said prac principle implying i was a) imagining i received a dirty insulin bottle, b) implying i am unable to tell if a cat has urinated on itself on the way home - box was dry as was cat!! etc etc which in my eyes was not sufficient - as you can see i prev put i would have been happy with something along the lines of ...new venture not quiite found our feet need to address these issues you have raised or suchlike - and by the way i would never step foot inside the surgery again!

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 19:20:39 GMT

I think that is all excellent advice Mark. Hope it helps you out Stacey? Really hope your kitty cat is getting better / is well.

Peace.

Ali h

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 19:15:03 GMT

Stacey, with all due respect, you requested a comment, Sal provided one, and you branded her a know it all. If you only want a specific answer or sympathy, feel free to say so, to avoid misunderstanding.

In terms of customer care they've obviously messed up quite badly, and I agree that pets should be sent home clean. (I've cleaned up cats with a damp sponge, it's not hard!) In terms of a complaint, feel free!

A formal complaint letter requires a few key points. (This is intended as advice. Another posted commented to me once that I came across as patronizing, and I'd like to forestall that by saying I don't intend to be patronizing here and apologize in advance if it comes across like it.)

1. State that the letter is indeed a complaint.

2. Put down the date of the incident. Describe the incident. Got pictures? Excellent, attach them if possible.

3. Explain the service you expected. eg for the amount you paid, you expected frequent medical checks, proper nursing care and a clean pet returned to you. (obviously you'll personalize this.)

4. Write down what exactly you expect in compensation, or what exactly you expect as a result of the letter. (money? apology?)

5. State what further steps you will take if the letter does not have your desired results. (solicitor? moving practice?)

6. Give them a timeline. eg you are expecting a response within 7 days.

7. Then sign off.

It's important that the letter guides them to the actions they take; if you don't write what you want from them sometimes they just don't know what to do with the complaint, hence the bad response to you so far.

Then of course, if this still doesn't work, you can either escalate or cut your losses and move practice.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Selena Carnell — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 16:12:37 GMT

I thought sals advice was constructive and helpful. Have you thought that they might be understaffed? Worked off their feet? So you have worked in he best and the worst then you should have some idea of what some nurses are expected to be able to do, whilst also trying to manage other things. I would arrange a meeting with the urgent in question and have it out with them, often though they will immediately have their hackles raised knowing you are a veterinary nurse. Without all the full detai,s and seeing e hosp sheets and billing it would be hard for most to comment.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 07:47:53 GMT

Yes, Arlo. I agree. I've just sent a PM to Sal to offer her my apologies. I thought she was trying to be helpful, as she always is.

I would've posted here same, earlier but thought it might spark a 'media-style frenzy attack' which would be very counter-productive. Thank you from me.

Ali h

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 05 Jan 2013 07:12:48 GMT

Stacyvn, I do think your post was unnecessarily unkind to Sal, who was obviously trying to be helpful. Her comment about the location of the practice was absolutely right, which is why I have edited your OP.

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:17:01 GMT

the best bit is i know the newly qual nurse there, she was trained by a VERY good friend of mine which makes it all the more depressing, how can i take the word of a someone who simply replied to my complaint but was not treating my cat without any legible proof...this is the whole point of hosp/anaesthesia records....so what do u have to back urself up if an anaesthetic goes horribly wrong same goes for medical cases in my book...

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Sal the 1st — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:35:18 GMT

sorry you didnt like what I had to say. I wasnt trying to annoy you more just trying to give a few suggestions as to how things might have happened. Obviously that wasnt what you were wanting I see that now. Sorry you think I know it all - I dont , I was working on the information you provided, and no I wasnt trying to be patronising either. Again hope your cat improves

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Helen Tottey — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:23:41 GMT

Do you know if they employ qualifed veterinary nurses or how experienced the nursing assistants are if not? Rarely do vets get involved with "care" and updating hospital records so if the nurses are not qualified or inexperienced this could be your answere. In my experience, the non for profit practices don;t always have qualifed nurses.

i agree with all others though - you need a face to face meeting. there could be a lot of misunderstanding going on as it could be a simple case of the notes not been written up which doesn;t necessarily mean the care was not there (but obv diff to prove without notes)

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:20:05 GMT

u know what to all the above who commented before sal "i know it all" the first, thank u so much for your constructive support i didnt scroll up and read ur comments....thank u thank u thank u much appreciated :-) i dunno if any further contact with the practice prince will do anything...funny thing is all i wanted was a letter saying - hey we a new venture our protocols are obv not set in stone yet and il ensure they are clarified from now on - not oh ur cat must have urinated on herself on way home (despite her coat clearly matted and stinking and a dry box! - oh and her venepunt site covered in dry brown blood) our record keeping needs a review etc etc i would have happily accepted that - but now he has literally said i imagined it all!!! anyone on here who was worked with me will know my patients are my priority and id fight tooth and nail to ensure they have the highest care ever so id only expect the same for my own cat.....oh and to boot the nurse who was on duty is someone i know and was trained by my best mate!!! adds insult to injury really!

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

staceyvn — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:10:44 GMT

hmmm ok so i have copies of both clinical records AND hospitalisation sheets, both of which have no record of a tpr or any other parameters which i would expect to be carried out on a critical patient, i will also add her weight was simply copied from one day to the other which indicates to me she was not weighed on a daily basis despite dehydration ...im not wet behind the ears and i know how things are done..would u wish your own pet to receive such a standard of care ?- the practice didnt simply "supply" me with her records it took 3 attempts to obtain them and only because i know i have a right to them! - il add the other local practices (the main one i used to work for before moving) are more than aware of their actions and if you care to look on other vet websites u will find they have caused quite a stir with the "not for profit" mantra indicating all other vets are in it for the money - please do not patronise me - i would love to forward u the flim-flam reply i received as im sure if it were ur own pet "treated" there u would be feeling exactly the same...iv got the rcvs complaints procedure in my hand and as its not gross misconduct - which i am not saying it was, it seems nothing can be done - does ur practice not routinely swab or ensure injectables are clean (as a diabetic advisor i am well aware insulin cannot be swabbed) would u like your patients to be injected from clearly contaminated bottles?? im not only angry but totally disappointed in our industry..i take it you have not locumed and seen the varying degrees of care??? - like all professions there are excellent, mediocre and poor but why oh why do we not protect all animals from the poor?? seems we are all too busy looking out for badgers/foxes and such - im sick of it!!!! iv worked from the baseline to the top referral and its not right thats all im saying and where can someone voice their opinions - cos i know the vet system so god help people who dont!

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Sal the 1st — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 21:50:08 GMT

[quote user="staceyvn"]

my ketoacidotic cat was treated by a local vets (i work 200miles away from home) in a more than substandard manner, presented dehydrated,ataxic and in a generally bad way following poorly controlled diabetes mell (transpired had concurrent chronic pancreatitis - not my poor care) i have obtained all clinical records and found not once during a 3 day stay did she receive a tpr, no urine/faeces/eating habits etc recorded - all the usual basic care standards you would expect, discharged dirty and smelling of urine with a dirty bottle of insulin also other issues regarding the bill iv written a complaint to said surgery and received a substandard and condescending reply which i am not happy with. said surgery in - claiming to be not for profit have raked in £622.00 of my cats insurance money ive looked into rcvs compaints procedure and as not gross misconduct im at a loss at to what i can do - its a very long story as to my cats care and i am far from happy but where do i go to get some form of outcome to ensure any other animals within the surgeries "care" and i use the term loosely ! are improved?? any suggestions will be welcomed :-)

[/quote]

if you arent satisfied with the practice or the reply to your complaint then in the first instance it would be best to let the practice know so they could perhaps arrange a meeting so you could discuss your concerns face to face - failing that then take it up with the RCVS.

If the practice have supplied you with a copy of full clinical records then that doesnt suggest to me they are trying to hide anything. Not every practice includes hospitalisation obs in the clinical records -there are plenty that record these on a seperate hospital sheet which might then only show in the clinical records if they were abnormal. Just because you have no record in the clinical notes it shouldnt be assumed automatically that checks were not carried out but that is something you need to establish with the practice.

Although you haven't named the practice you have given the location which if you have a problem with this one practice isnt very fair on the other practices in the vicinity because anybody reading this (which may also be members of the public dont forget) will then be wondering which practice it is, and this may be harmful to all of them.

So in short although you are angry maybe the best you can do is take your complaint back to the practice and give them another chance to explain and if you are still unhappy take it to the RCVS but I personally wouldnt be putting it on here.

make a clear list of you complaints that you wish the practice to comment on one by one - I am not sticking up for substandard care but what I am saying is that sometimes when we are angry or upset over one point it then becomes easier to find other points we arent happy with either which in turn leads to more anger and more searching for points of complaint and one big mess. Give the practice one more chance to provide you with an explanation.

I hope things improve for your cat

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Celine — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 21:42:40 GMT

Yep, thats me, i'm sitting here trying to think of what to suggest. I'd go for trying to speak in person to practice manager. I take it it isnt a branch of a bigger group? In which case, go straight to head office. Also take it they are not claiming any kind of RCVS accreditation whereby they have certain standards to adhere to? In whuch case guess you could drop them in it... Unfortunately not much more i can think of...

Re: disgusted and not sure where to take it...

Steph Worsley — Fri, 04 Jan 2013 21:36:37 GMT

Try writing to the practice again or seek legal advice if you are not happy. You could always just write to the RCVS and see what they say

It might be that people don't know what to suggest for you, it's not that they don't care it's that they are stumped as to how to help you