Advocate - alternatives?

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Kate Claxton DipAVN(Med)VN — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 19:18:06 GMT

Not particularly bothered about that as long as it does the job for her - we're already using it 4 times a year anyway so no great drama to do it every month. I just wanted a preventative product versus a 'treatment' product if that makes sense? If I can use it monthly, then great. Sorry if I wasn't very clear with my original question and thanks for the help.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 18:25:39 GMT

Or just use milbemax every month! oh - wait - it isn't licensed for this - oops!

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Kate Claxton DipAVN(Med)VN — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:37:20 GMT

Yep - we're in Cheltenham Went to see a vet friend yest who made me feel a bit better - she said why put her though the misery of the reaction every month for the possibility of infection so we're going to do that and keep an eye out for the next new drug! Thanks all.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Angiy Michael — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:36:45 GMT

She's South West so yes

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

wendy rattray — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:54:15 GMT

Getting back to Kate's original query - There doesnt seem to be anything other than Advocate on the market to prevent Lungwrom infestation. Panacur does kill lungworm but its Oslerus and not Angiostrongylus vasorum. It's a shame your dog has reacted after every application, i'd be very cautious about using it in the future. Are you in a high risk area?

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 09:05:15 GMT

I concede the point :D

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 08:08:17 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Oh, go to bed [/quote]

I had......

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 08:07:44 GMT

[quote user="Claire 'Duke' York"] Besides I've met more than my fair share of vets who get facts wrong too.[/quote]

Yep - myself included (not often, obviously ) That was why I was curious where the info came from.....

[quote user="Claire 'Duke' York"]I've also steered Collies away from it, better safe than sorry.[/quote]

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Claire Cameron — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:57:42 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]Milbemax isn't a good alternative for collie types either, being that they're sensitive to it. Sorry Kate, I have no suggestions![/quote]

Collies are more sensitive to overdose. They are absolutely fine at therapeutic doses.

I would be interested to know who told you that milbemax is unsafe in collies? I get this rubbish told me by clients but wouldn't expect it from qualified veterinary staff.

[/quote] Bit harsh on Vicky, Gillian. Erring on the side of caution isn't usually a bad thing in my book. Besides I've met more than my fair share of vets who get facts wrong too. I was actually told by a medicine certificate holder that Collies are hypersensitive to Milbemycin. So it seems it's not just Vicky who thought that. I've also steered Collies away from it, better safe than sorry.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:53:32 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I'm not disagreeing that the original information was re milbemax was incorrect[/quote]

[/quote]

Oh, go to bed

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:36:07 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I'm not disagreeing that the original information was re milbemax was incorrect[/quote]

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:29:06 GMT

[quote user="Angiy Michael"]

Some information from this study appears to have been being digested by various breed clubs and on several dog forums so that is probably where this information you keep hearing about is coming from Gillian..I found this on the Smooth Collie Breeders Site

http://www.smoothcollieclub.com/09mdr.htm

[/quote]

Oh yes - google - the bane of our lives eh? But the list of drugs that they say should only be used under close veterinary supervision is hilarious. It includes vincristine, doxorubicin and morphine. No sh1t sherlock!

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:22:46 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]Thanks for that Mark, nice to see some people aren't treating me like an idiot who "talks rubbish". FFS! Yes a lot of collies ok with it, but like you say, err on the side of caution. [/quote]

I think mark has stirred this up somewhat - I simply said that the statement of milbemax being unsafe in collies was rubbish - maybe I am just frustrated as more and more clients are quoting this to me and it is bugging me wondering where this is coming from. You still seem to insinuate that some collies aren't OK with it and I am not aware of any facts to back this up - but I am happy to be corrected....

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]But hey, maybe I am an idiot and shouldn't be doing my job.....[/quote]

I do not think my original post said anything to that effect, but was then misrepresented.

[/quote]

On my part, no misrepresentation was intended. I'm not particularly good at dissecting the fine points of grammar, except to say that when my mother told me I was speaking rubbish (which still happens, she hasn't changed! ) I rarely felt good, even if she hadn't specifically accused me of being in any way foolish or stupid.

I also have no desire or intention to stir anything up.

I'm not disagreeing that the original information was re milbemax was incorrect - just glad it's all sorted for now. Right now I'm just sorry I don't speak better German, the paper looks interesting!

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Angiy Michael — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:21:02 GMT

Interestingly there is actually a German study on-going regarding drug sensitivity and multi-drug resistance in certain breeds of dog including Collies which looks at a gene involved which enables certain drugs inc MIlbemax to pass the blood brain barrier and cause neurological problems.. http://www.acd-ev.de/Rasseinfo/Gesundheit/MDR-1-Defekt/mdr-1-defekt.html

..unfortunately you would need a reasonable grasp of German in order to read the link but as this thread was started by a query by Kate C it's fortunate that I know that she is the most likely person to be able to read a reasonable proportion of it in German

http://www.smoothcollieclub.com/09mdr.htm

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:19:51 GMT

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]The way the post was written made me feel like an idiot![/quote]

That wasn't the intention, and I have already apologised if it was taken that way.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:16:38 GMT

I personally do not think Mark is stirring. I would have interpreted your post just as I have without his input. The way the post was written made me feel like an idiot! I do not remember who told me that collies are sensitive to Milbemax, but I do know i've heard it more than once. And not from clients! Always used it at my old practice with collies, we didn't stock Drontal, and we used Advocate on collies too, with no bad effects. But my thinking is that if a collie has had problems with Advocate then they're sensitive to the product, so I wondered if they'd be sensitive to Milbemax too. This is obviously not the case for this dog as she's been given it before. I'll shut up now, as i'm obviously not adding anything useful to the thread.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Angiy Michael — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:05:10 GMT

Hello, Just to clarify I didn't read it the same way, hence why I said that I thought Vicky meant Collies are sensitive to it . I did think your post came across as strongly worded and appeared to take Vicky out of context when she was trying to be helpful..it's actually surprising how many qualified people don't know Collie's are sensitive to Milbemax..so she was actually doing everyone a favour by drawing attention to it. I think this is a classic case of typing causing offence..as there is no intonation or facial expressions to go by in written communication...at least I hope so...so let's have a bit of loveliness and niceness everyone

As for milbemax here is some info relevant to this point from the NOAH data

Contra-indications, warnings, etc

Do not use the ‘tablets for small dogs and puppies’ in dogs of less than 2 weeks of age and/or weighing less than 0.5 kg

Do not use the ‘tablets for dogs’ in dogs weighing less than 5 kg.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:57:17 GMT

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]But hey, maybe I am an idiot and shouldn't be doing my job.....[/quote]

I do not think my original post said anything to that effect, but was then misrepresented.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:53:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Vicky was erring on the side of caution[/quote]

I am sorry if I appeared harsh but the post seemed to say, unequivocally, that the OP shouldn't use milbemax in collies - if i misunderstood this I apologise. The other two replies stating that people do use it in their own collies presumably shows they also read it the same way as me. I am genuinely interested where this information came from.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:46:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]Milbemax isn't a good alternative for collie types either, being that they're sensitive to it. Sorry Kate, I have no suggestions![/quote]

Collies are more sensitive to overdose. They are absolutely fine at therapeutic doses.

I would be interested to know who told you that milbemax is unsafe in collies? I get this rubbish told me by clients but wouldn't expect it from qualified veterinary staff.

[/quote]

Gillian, isn't it better to just correct the error? Seems a bit harsh - and Vicky was erring on the side of caution, which is personally my favorite side. So milbemax is fine in collies - is there any need to compound any possible embarrassment at an error in public?

[/quote]

Thanks for that Mark, nice to see some people aren't treating me like an idiot who "talks rubbish". FFS! Yes a lot of collies ok with it, but like you say, err on the side of caution. But hey, maybe I am an idiot and shouldn't be doing my job.....

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 20:28:27 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]Milbemax isn't a good alternative for collie types either, being that they're sensitive to it. Sorry Kate, I have no suggestions![/quote]

Collies are more sensitive to overdose. They are absolutely fine at therapeutic doses.

I would be interested to know who told you that milbemax is unsafe in collies? I get this rubbish told me by clients but wouldn't expect it from qualified veterinary staff.

[/quote]

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Angiy Michael — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:22:21 GMT

I think she probably meant sensitive to overdose..I was aware it should be used with caution in Collies..however I have a Collie and use it at standard dose rates without any problems

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:31:36 GMT

[quote user="Vicky RVN"]Milbemax isn't a good alternative for collie types either, being that they're sensitive to it. Sorry Kate, I have no suggestions![/quote]

Collies are more sensitive to overdose. They are absolutely fine at therapeutic doses.

I would be interested to know who told you that milbemax is unsafe in collies? I get this rubbish told me by clients but wouldn't expect it from qualified veterinary staff.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Selena Carnell — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:47:17 GMT

My collie has milbemax and has no problems with it.

Re: Advocate - alternatives?

Kate Claxton DipAVN(Med)VN — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:48:27 GMT

I think that's going to have to be our strategy - in the absence of any lovely new products on the market! Have to weigh up the possibility of lungworm against the certainty of a very miserable dog every month! She did get her revenge today though - rolled in a load of fox crap to cover the smell of the Advocate! niiiiiiiiiiice! x