Raw Diets

Re: Raw Diets

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:04:04 GMT

I posted anji's questions to a pet forum that advocates raw diets, the cat breeders of course rebeled and wined about replying. but the doggy people seem to be more interested. I've got one relivant reply from the dog forum. here: http://www.pets-chat.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4030

makes for interesting reading.

Re: Raw Diets

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:42:25 GMT

No problem. I have also posted your questions on a pet forum that is full of raw feeders. I'm interested in hearing what they have to say. To get more a clients prospective. I will post the replies as they come. :)

Re: Raw Diets

anji jonas — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:15:33 GMT

thanks so much steph! - ill need some time to digest this but i really appreciate your trouble in explaining it!

- lol - spelling never was my strong point -

thanks again

A.x

Re: Raw Diets

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:26:21 GMT

[quote user="anji jonas"]hi all, ive just read through this whole thread and its facinating! more so because im currently studying for the city and guilds in small animal nutrition. so ive read all the info on the barf website and been following the debate in the veterinary press but i have a few questions and i think you guys are just the girls to put me straight....[/quote]

Right I'll have a crack at this...

[quote]1.why are commercial diets so "terrible"? is it the animal welfare issues or the ingredients that you are most worried about?[/quote]
I think it’s a combination of both really. More so the ingredients and the amount of cereals in the feline dry/wet diets and the amounts of sodium and sugars in the canine/feline wet diets. But also the meat content protein percentage, the way it’s cooked and the level of natural vitamins not additives.

[quote]2. how can we work out how "bad" a diet is? ingredient list? addatives?[/quote]
The meat quality, what parts of the animal are being used? How is it cooked or treated? E numbers, sodium content, sugar levels, cereals in feline diets, rice levels in feline diets as well as taurine. Also the added pro-biotics… some are unnecessary or there are higher levels than needed. The lack of fresh raw meats with there own naturally occurring bacteria is being replaced with pro-biotics and itsn’t necessarily the best alternative. Have a search on bovine pro-biotics and the effects on the gut. Not to mention the amount of vegetables added as fillers, when was the last time you saw a cat eat a potato or a carrot?
A food needs to be nutritionally balanced. There will be a formula to which most feed manufacturers work around, x% protein, x% carbohydrates, x% fat and x% minerals and vitamins. The food manufacturer works out how he is going to fulfil that requirement to make it cheap enough so he can maximise his profits, but also be appealing to the discerning pet owner so he can then carve out a niche out in the market. 100% meat would be unsustainable, expensive and not particularly balanced so he has to look at other sources of protein, carbohydrate and fat. Grain (cereal) seems to be persona non grata in the "premium" food market so he has to replace it with something else. Enter fruit and veg. Fruit and veg are cheap (in bulk), easily sourced ingredients with all year round availability which they can plump up the food with. Fruit and veg are deemed healthy so no one is going to quibble. Cats do need some fruit and veg but probably not in the amounts some foods seem to contain. I have yet to see my cats chomping on potatoes, apples and tomatoes, and raiding my blackcurrant bushes. Grain which was the staple filler has been replaced by these "healthy alternatives" . Add a bit of herbal concoctions, vitamins, some pro-biotics and you appeal to the health conscious pet owner.

[quote]3. i thought that barf only worked if you were feeding whole carcasses, as feeding meat with no bone content causes nutrient deficiencies?[/quote]
Barf is based on going back to nature but also feeding a varied diet. In order to do so you need to feed a balanced diet as well. Just feeding meat isn’t going to be balanced. Any diet if it isn’t varied is going to cause deficiencies. Feeding too much fish or too much egg can also cause problems having too much rice in cat food can cause deficiencies as well. A varied diet could also be feeding a little meat and some other commercial foods with it. Or commercial foods with the occasional chicken wing to keep teeth healthy, but really it’s about moderation. I think commercial/veterinary diets are the easy way of feeding. They have become a creature comfort and have lacked in actually looking at the pets and not just worrying about if it’s going to appeal to the owner and their busy schedule. This is why it’s so important for us to have a look at how these more natural diets work. They all seem foreign because we aren’t used to them. They seem complicated because we haven’t researched them enough to put them into practice. The key would be to get more veterinary support with them as the myths of it being complicated are really just that, myths. Once you start to get into it it’s actually a fairly easy program and cheaper! But not having continuity and understanding by the people we trust (vets) things get confused and owners start doing their own research and only get half of the story.

[quote]4. where can i find information or the feeding of rice to cats and its impact on taurine availibility?[/quote]
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1745S
This is an excellent article from 2002 from an American journal.

[quote]5. it strikes me that the idea behind BARF is sound but how many owners "honestly" would have the time to do it properly? and thats the real issue, am i right?[/quote]

See my answer for question 3. The issue is the lack of use. Of course it seems complicated and confusing, but so is driving a car, or following a map to get to work on the trains or using a computer at work. We’ve become lazy. So lazy in fact I heard today that they are trying to ban kissing at a train platform because it gets in the way of people in a hurry. Now why would someone be in such a hurry? Poor time management and laziness. There’s no drive in some people these days. It’s become so pushed and rushed that the core values have been stripped from us having a happy healthy life that we can actually enjoy.

The other issue I think is the lack of revenue with raw diets. there's no real sell for it in a practice, unless someone were to make ready meals or something! or if the vets were to get in with the local supermarkets and butchers like restaurants.

[quote]i await you replies with intrest and will keep following the debate.....

A.x

[/quote]

P.s. You really need a spell checker! ;)

Re: Raw Diets

anji jonas — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:33:03 GMT

hi all, ive just read through this whole thread and its facinating! more so because im currently studying for the city and guilds in small animal nutrition. so ive read all the info on the barf website and been following the debate in the veterinary press but i have a few questions and i think you guys are just the girls to put me straight....

1.why are commercial diets so "terrible"? is it the animal welfare issues or the ingredients that you are most worried about?

2. how can we work out how "bad" a diet is? ingredient list? addatives?

3. i thought that barf only worked if you were feeding whole carcasses, as feeding meat with no bone content causes nutrient deficiencies?

4. where can i find information or the feeding of rice to cats and its impact on taurine availibility?

5. it strikes me that the idea behind BARF is sound but how many owners "honestly" would have the time to do it properly? and thats the real issue, am i right?

i await you replies with intrest and will keep following the debate.....

A.x

Re: Raw Diets

Fiona Leathers — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:47:23 GMT

Absolutely!! I feel suitably chastised!! Sorry!! I have nothing to say (thats a first!) about raw diets - never used them probably not ever going to, so I will slink off to the VN Arms for a quick pint!

Re: Raw Diets

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:40:05 GMT

OI!! back on topic!!

Re: Raw Diets

Fiona Leathers — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:39:13 GMT

I haven't been on for days and there's soooo much to catch up on!! Oh is feeling slightly unloved tonight!!

Re: Raw Diets

Louise B — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:36:43 GMT

Ello you! I am avoiding this forum like the plague but it keeps drawing me in... I am up to my neck in work - its looking like an all night sesh at the mo

Re: Raw Diets

Fiona Leathers — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:29:50 GMT

Woo Hoo Louise!!!! I didn't think you were coming on cos of your heavy work schedule!!! (or has sandra called you in for re-inforcements!!))

Re: Raw Diets

Louise B — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:25:16 GMT

Yes - how dare you!

STRVN is such a moderate (drinker) she makes the labour party look like a bunch of communists

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:14:52 GMT

How very dare you mines a G and T incase you did not know..lol

Re: Raw Diets

Fiona Leathers — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:12:53 GMT

I've heard you don't take much enticing!!

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:02:40 GMT

You are a wicked women fi enticing me with the pub....lol

Re: Raw Diets

Fiona Leathers — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:00:40 GMT

I think I've got one Sandra, let me try to dig it out and I'll get it to you somehow......maybe meeting in a pub somewhere!!

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:29:39 GMT

Thats ok, dont worry about it, I will get one.

Re: Raw Diets

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:27:50 GMT

my rep may be a tiny wee bit peeved off with me at the moment, so I'm afraid I cant help you that way

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:21:04 GMT

Me being a locum dont have a local rep, but will ask at my local practice if they can get me a copy.

Re: Raw Diets

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:16:18 GMT

another idea is to contact your local Royal Canin rep??

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:46:34 GMT

Thanks anyway paula, I will see if I can get my hands on one somehow.

Re: Raw Diets

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:27:59 GMT

Hi Sandra,

I dont have the book, so sorry. Its actually a breed book. I do have a clinical nutrition one though nothing about chronic renal insuffiency mentioned in it.

The topics mentioned are protein, use of essential amino acids and keto acids, dietary energy, minerals and electrolytes, vitamins. I dont think its what you are after though.

Re: Raw Diets

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:31:44 GMT

i actually think the dogs are much farther along than the cats to be honest. but i could be wrong. i find that felines have gotten the poop end of the stick so to speak with diets. no one has really thought about what they put in the foods these days. cats do not need cereals.

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:04:59 GMT

Aww thankyou very much Paula

Re: Raw Diets

Saskia Quinn — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:42:10 GMT

Its possible I have one Sandra, though its probably in work. I could have a look tomorrow (if you don't get one in the meantime) I def have a Royal Canin encloyaedia of some kind and I have a feeling its the nutrition one.

I'm sure we could organise to have the relevant pages faxed to you? I will let you know.

Re: Raw Diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:33:55 GMT

Now the chronic renal insufficiency bit gets me interested, where might I get a copy of this?