Senior diets

Re: Senior diets

Kathryn Welsh — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:53:58 GMT

Hills no longer do samples as they find that an animal will eat the food for a one off as its something different but when used daily they will not - also Hills to a 100% money back guarantee.

Re: Senior diets

anji jonas — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:42:01 GMT

hi all,

so with the fact that royal canin are condensing their veterinary range and removing some of the "senior" products - ie the vet size range - you can no longer get maxi "mature" they just stay on "adult". have royal canin perhaps looked into this "myth" about protein in elderly dogs and adapted the range to fit???

i dont know the answer but its food for thought

A.x

Re: Senior diets

Christine Chapman — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 06:34:19 GMT

I have pernicious anemia which means I am cannot absorb Vitamin B12 and have to have 3 monthly injections. Sometimes my haemoglobin levels are quite low. I wonder if animals can suffer from this too! I've never really looked into this!

Re: Senior diets

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:10:18 GMT

if you're curious about the vtamin b content check for these...

taken from Wiki so do take with a grain of salt.

Different B vitamins come from different natural sources, such as potatoes, bananas, lentils, chile peppers, tempeh, liver oil, liver, turkey, tuna, Nutritional yeast (or brewer's yeast) and molasses. Marmite and Vegemite bill themselves as "one of the world's richest known sources of vitamin B". As might be expected, due to its high content of brewer's yeast, beer is a source of B vitamins^[8], although this may be less true for filtered beers^[9]and the alcohol in beer impairs the body's ability to activate vitamins.

The B-12 vitamin is of note because it is not available from plant products, making B-12 deficiency a concern for vegans. Manufacturers of plant-based foods will sometimes report B-12 content, leading to confusion about what sources yield B-12. The confusion arises because the standard US Pharmacopeia (USP) method for measuring the B-12 content does not measure the B-12 directly. Instead, it measures a bacterial response to the food. Chemical variants of the B-12 vitamin found in plant sources are active for bacteria, but cannot be used by the human body. This same phenomenon can cause significant over-reporting of B-12 content in other types of foods as well.^[10]

Vitamin B may also be delivered by injection to reverse deficiencies.^[11]

Another popular means of increasing one's vitamin B intake is through the use of dietary supplements purchased at supermarkets, health centers, or natural food stores. B vitamins are also commonly added to energy drinks. Many energy drinks have been marketed with large amounts of B vitamins ("5-Hour Energy contains an astounding 8,333% of the recommended dietary allowance of vitamin B-12 and 2,000% of the RDA for vitamin B-6.… Red Bull…offers 360% of the RDA for vitamin B-6, 120% of B12, 140% of niacin (vitamin B3)"^[12]) with claims that this will cause the consumer to "sail through your day without feeling jittery or tense." ^[12] Nutritionists, such as Professor Hope Barkoukis, dismiss these claims "It's brilliant marketing, but it doesn't have any basis [in fact]."^[12] While B vitamins do "help unlock the energy in foods…Just about everyone in America already gets all of the B vitamins they could possibly need in their diets… Extra B vitamins are generally just flushed out of the system - although everyone's limit of absorption is different in regards to B complex vitamins and no-one knows how much is needed on an individual basis of these vitamins…"^[12] While the elderly and athletes may need to supplement their intake of B-12 and other B vitamins due to problems in absorption and increased needs for energy production, for "most typical consumers of energy supplements or drinks, B vitamins are nothing more than a 'gimmick' when they are making these false claims."^[12]

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:29:04 GMT

I have been reading some more today and have to say I am astounded at the amount of information regarding protein for the renal patient and the senior dog has been available for a lot longer than any of the so called market for complete foods that are available today, it just makes you wonder that the food companies have either not researched enough,or have chosen to forget experiments or tests that have been done as far back as the 1970's. I am more and more shocked also that the amount of vets who do not advocate the senior diet, yet we are brainwashed into this ideology of reducing prot is best for senior dogs when there is no evidence whatsoever of protein having an adverse effect on a healthy kidney and not evidence of protien having a adverse effect on a damaged one either . Hmmmm I am getting the impression that I and possibly a lot of people have been duped into thinking or believeing is a better word the ideology of the pet food industry.

Well I am the worm that turned so to speak, and I am off to do more detecting.

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:26:42 GMT

Hi Erica,

thankyou for your reply. I think what you say makes a lot of sense and I agree that taking each individual on it's own merits is a more sensible approach.

I do believe there is a market for certain diets, I just dont think advising them when you are only presented with facts from one side (ie the food companies) is the way to go.

I had a Rottie who lived to the grand old age of 14, and she never saw a senior diet in her life, and 14 is an amazing age for her breed.

Re: Senior diets

Erica Huggins — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:41:01 GMT

You do make some intersting points and ones we should all consider. I have always been under the illision that the diets also help prevent obesity in the more lethargic older dog yet still maintain good lean muscle to help support joints etc esp improtant for those old OA dogs.

I do not however actively advocate changing diets at excatly 7 or 8 (depending on the brand of food you use) I have seen some dog that would benifit from a senior diet muct younger and those that are bouncy and bright till about 11! I will take each case on it's own merits and as long as the dog is having regular health chks and on a good quality food and otherwise fit and healthy I try not to get caught up in the promotional branding and the idealistic approach to senior foods.

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:45:35 GMT

Lets try again. Thankyou for your reply Judy. Rubys Diet does not have vit b in it,well not that I can see from the ingredients anyway. I supplement her with this, as I know it is deficient in the CRF patient. The sodium well there are diets specific for high BP and as it is her glomerulus that is damaged and not her distal tubule then surely there is no need for reduced sodium, plus her BP has always been normal.I will say the same for Seniors. Back to the seniors, I just cant get my head round the fact of changing a dogs diet that is otherwise in good health and has no aged illness present, especially when if going by what I have read that you can actually contribute to illness by doing so.

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:39:03 GMT

There are gremlins in the works tonight, I am having probs posting pms and now messages.Spent ages answering Judy and it's not there

Re: Senior diets

Judy Blythe — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:11:09 GMT

Protein quality and quantity is important in kidney damged patients- the protein needs to be at a level where it is not in excess but more critically it should be of high biological value (i,e not feathers and claws). So the total protein may not be decreased at all. Phosphorus is the most important aspect of the diet so in a senior diet it is reduced and in a kidney diet reduced further- because it will damage the kidneys further. Sodium is also important in that high sodium will have an influence on blood pressure so may further cause damage, as well as causing the kidney to produce more urine to remove it from the body. A prescription kidney diet will have these aspects reduced/ and or controlled as well as providing other benefits such as increased B vits to combat those lost in urine etc etc.

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:07:22 GMT

Can I ask you all the question why do you advise this if the dog is otherwise healthy?

The reason I am quizzing you all is I have been doing a bit of research myself and found that giving a dog a reduced prot diet when they are otherwise healthy regardless of their age can have the opposite effect on the dog, and can make them more susceptible to illness as their immune system can be compromised because of the reduced prot.

I have read various sites where tests over a matter of years that are backed up by vets prove that reducing a dogs protein is not always a good move.

The reason for my research started off with my own dog and her CRF, and I stumbled across a lot of things that basically say the opposite as to what we have been taught,whether it is in practice college or from the food companies themselves.

A dog in CRF who has a BUN of less than 28 can be fed an adult protein diet with no adverse effect on the kidney, although a phos binder must be given, and although there was no improvement to the kidney there was no further damage either, these tests lasted 4 yrs on dogs in CRF, and considering there is a 500 day window and if you pass it you are doing great for the CRF patient, then 4 yrs is a lifetime.The most important factor for the CRF patient is the phos and as long as you get that correct there should be no reason to reduce the protein.

My dogs last prot/crea ration told us that my dog is not losing prot from her urine and it was within normal range, so her glomerulus although damaged is not damaged to the point of her losing protein, the research I have done also suggests that if the dog is losing, then reducing the protein in the diet can have adverse effects, thus reducing the immunity and making them susceptible to other illnesses.

Now my research is continuing and I will keep you all updated, but this certainly has given me pause for thought.

Re: Senior diets

Erica Huggins — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:50:27 GMT

I always recommened a senior diet and most if not all our healthcare club members are on it (over the age of 7 ).

We tend to be more pushy with senior cats regards to kidney diease and weight and UTI issues. I had some lovely snior sample packs from purina with a 400g bag, measure cup and info. We tend not to need sample bags as most compnies offer 100% money back guarentee if they are not completely happy with the food choice. Our healthcare members get 5% of every purchase and after 5 bag get a 6th one free!

Re: Senior diets

Emma Purnell — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:04:43 GMT

We advise a senior diet at the senior checks we do from 8+, don't seem to get an awful lot of joy myself but I continue to try!

With the samples, we had the Hill's rep in not long ago and her arguement with regard to the samples was to do with the weaning period. She said if you give them samples they feed it for one meal straight off, it upsets the animals stomach, the owner thinks they don't get on with the food and we never see them again. It is also more revenue for the practice if they buy a small bag rather than try the sample and buy it off the internet or similar...

Re: Senior diets

Christine Chapman — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:27:14 GMT

I always advise the client to put their pet on to a senior specific diet and explain why. There are clients who don't actually know about this and are very grateful for my advice. My boss should be a salesperson as he has no trouble pushing this at all

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:09:04 GMT

helloooooooooooo

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:38:25 GMT

Come on guys, keep the answers coming, I am doing some research here, and need to know if anyone is saying anything different as to what is already above.

Re: Senior diets

Christine Chapman — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 04:54:40 GMT

Usually while in consultation we recommend that over the age of 8 the animal would benefit from a senior diet! Of course we explain why and 9 times out of 10 they purchase a bag or two !

Re: Senior diets

Saskia Quinn — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 23:56:25 GMT

definitely used to get all kinds of samples from hills, senir, senior light, adult, adult light etc, for some reason they must have stopped doing them.....the only ones we get from them now are puppy and kitten

Re: Senior diets

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:24:49 GMT

Are any of the nurses on here on the surgeons site? if so could you post up this question there too and get back to me with the answers? if not could Arlo please do it

Re: Senior diets

Charlotte says smile — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:21 GMT

we dont give out samples, hills t/d sometimes, if not give the smallest bag at a discount then if they come back for a 2nd bag they would get a discount too. Im sure at some point we had hills senior samples,

Re: Senior diets

Fiona Leathers — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:46:16 GMT

We've tried to samples from Hills & Royal Canin for seniors but they say they don't have any - which is illogical cos I used to get it from them at a previous practice. Which samples do you give out?

Re: Senior diets

Charlotte says smile — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:45:12 GMT

We do the same as you bouncyfi, have to say 80% of the clients take a bag home and about 60% come back for more.

Re: Senior diets

Fiona Leathers — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:43:41 GMT

We do senior health checks and discuss diet at that stage. Just recommending that the salt & protein intake needs to be decreased to compensate for their older kidneys. Wouldn't say we push it but definately recommend it.