Garlic and Onion

Re: Garlic and Onion

Sal the 1st — Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:56:13 GMT

well I know of a breeder (has been a judge at Crufts in the past) that sticks a clove of garlic down her dogs throat a couple of times a week because it 'keeps their skin healthy' - she has been doing it for years, with seemingly no ill effects. Have to say most of her dogs do have really good coats and they are all pretty long lived which is kind of unusual for westies - and I am not saying she is right or wrong and I am certainly not saying she is poisoning her dogs who all appear to be pretty healthy.

I am not disputing that some substances have the potential to be toxic but I do think sometimes people are going a bit ott and assuming that ANY exposure is a toxic exposure and that simply isnt the case. Using the same criteria that has been stated in a few of these posts ie exposure to a potentially toxic substance should be avoided fullstop, lets take the example of alcohol in humans. if people are walking their talk and taking their own advice I wouldnt expect any of them, knowing the potential risks of drinking alcohol, to be going anywhere near the stuff let alone drinking it and heaven forbid drinking enough of it to get a hangover.

Re: Garlic and Onion

Selena Carnell — Sun, 23 Dec 2012 21:20:11 GMT

I would not recommend giving garlic to client pets, as each is an individual case, garlic and onions contain this sulphites which can caus trouble overs a period of time, no not necessarily immeadiate but can cause long term damage.

Re: Garlic and Onion

funkyfish — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:48:13 GMT

Once we had a young springer spaniel (about 8-10 months ish) in who had eaten a whole bulb of garlic, it died 12 hours later. its blood was like tar.

Re: Garlic and Onion

JaneRVN — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:33:48 GMT

I wonder if the confusion is because onions and garlic are from the same vegetable family. I think clients would assume if one is toxic the other either is, or is likely to be.

Re: Garlic and Onion

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:57:38 GMT

Hey, Princess Ophelia! Deep breaths, now *goes and hides* (there's no smiley here for a smartypants grin and a cuppa tea)

Re: Garlic and Onion

A-J — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:27:56 GMT

you seem to think i was having a pop at you. It was a general reply to the posts

Someone had mentioned that they didn't know onions were toxic and i was surprised, that is all.

Yes the amount of onion quoted per kg/bw is alot. I think the thing we need to be aware of is onion powder which could potentially be a more concentrated form.

How different dogs react may be an individual thing too. I'm sure the same could be said for chocolate and dogs (i used to feed my first dog chocolate raisins ).

As for humans and carrots i remember a friends baby getting an orange hue due to overconsumption of carrot puree

Re: Garlic and Onion

Louise B — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:01:44 GMT

[quote user="A-J"]

look at this link and scroll down to see about onions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2984110/

FYI a few weeks ago we had a previously healthy 5 yr old golden retriever come in collapsed. MM the colour of chocolate. Oxidative changes to blood. The only hx was that he had been fed 1/2 a Ginsters pastie a few days previous. It did contain onion but also onion powder.

Surprised some ppl didn't know that onion is toxic

[/quote]

I don't think anyone has argued that onions cannot be toxic, have they? I think the detail is in the dose required for toxicity. I am suprised re: your Golden Retriever but the article that you post in support of onion toxicity states that:

Consumption of as little as 5 g/kg of onions in cats or 15 to 30 g/kg in dogs has resulted in clinically important hematologic changes (Cope, 2005). Onion toxicosis is consistently noted in animals that ingest more than 0.5% of their b. wt. in onions at one time. A relatively high dosage (600–800 g) in one meal or spread apart over a few days can damage red blood cells and cause haemolytic anaemia accompanied by the formation of Heinz bodies in erythrocytes.

Despite the relatively misleading opening phrase "consumption of as little..." that is actually a lot of onion to feed a dog before clinically important changes are noted so any blanket advice to just 'don't feed onion' which is what lots of people (VN staff) will extrapolate from this is misleading and maybe throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Or, perhaps you would like humans to avoid eating carrots fullstop?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22431270

I have now edited my typo in the previous post incase that comment was directed at me and you had misread my comment. The JRT is question passed treacle coloured urine for a day or two, remained bright with normal coloured membranes and was otherwise clinically normal on physical exam (we did not blood test) and did not receive veterinary attention (we simply observed). This was about 14 years ago. However, I have fed onions many times before and after to both dogs and cats without any problems whatsoever and would continue to do so without hesitation (just in more reasonable sized quantities).

Re: Garlic and Onion

A-J — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:05:23 GMT

look at this link and scroll down to see about onions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2984110/

Surprised some ppl didn't know that onion is toxic

Re: Garlic and Onion

Louise B — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:31:44 GMT

[quote user="kylie"]

Hi there,

Sorry for joining this conversation so very very late, Ive only just signed up but this is a topic that interests me. I have been a RVN for 4 years and have worked in both small and large animal practice as well as emergency and critical care and a holistic vets. I entered this last job with slight skepticism but an open mind and have learnt an astonishing amount through it-some times you need to experience these thigns first hand to believe them.

We all know that onion causes haemolytic anaemia due to the thiosulphate content, however most dogs would need to consume about 6-8 onions for the level of thiosulphate to reach harmful levels and the amount of thiosulphate is so marginal in garlic that a case of adverse effects from the consumption of it has never been reported, despite millions nof cats and dogs having daily doses of the stuff. In fact the health benefits that can be reaped from garlic far far outweigh any negative effects. It has medicinal properties including antibiotic, antiseptic and anti-viral and is fab for treating skin conditions, respiratory problems, minor infections and artritis (due to anti-inflamotory properties) It also leaves a taste in the blood which is unattractive to parasites such as fleas and ticks and strenghens the immune system.

My opinion on this is not just something I have made up from reading various bits and pieces from the internet or lisening to other peoples opinions, but is made up from significant first hand experience so believe me-GARLIC IS NOT POISONOUS TO CATS AND DOGS!

[/quote]

Finally!!! 100% agree. I have actually given a dog too many onions and seen the effects of doing so (the dog was fine in the end) - but it was a 5kg JRT and I had fed it a huge amount of raw onion over several days - I was new to feeding the raw food diet and fed the onion in large quantities over several days. The other dogs (lab x, collie, border terrier) were all fine and were fed a similar quantity scaled up to their bodysize. I used to feed raw garlic (and onion apart from this one incident) all the time without problems.

Re: Garlic and Onion

kylie — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:15:48 GMT

Hi there,

Re: Garlic and Onion

Apple27surf — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:18:07 GMT

You are so right Christine! As I typed it I thought there was something not right! And yes, you are being downright fussy!!!! Lol

Re: Garlic and Onion

Christine Chapman — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:10:15 GMT

Ummmm over here it is called 'gleaned' not 'gleamed'. Just being a downright fussy hussy here

Re: Garlic and Onion

hissycat — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:50:05 GMT

Learned a couple of years ago that onion was toxic.. had to stop mother feeding my kitty tesco chicken in sauce (for humans!) as has onion in. though he did have it for a while before with seemingly no ill effects. (kitty has mother wrapped round little paw) :) Wasn't aware garlic was also toxic. There is a little bit about onion poisoning in this link.

http://www.fabcats.org/owners/anaemia/info1.html

and here

http://www.fabcats.org/owners/poisons/Cats%20and%20poisons.html

Re: Garlic and Onion

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:49:26 GMT

awesome thank you so much for your clarification. I also found this link. http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/info.htm which was useful but you never know what these peoples qualifications are so it's difficult to just believe what some herbalist says. a lot of the herb/supplement companies will tell you what you want to hear to get you to buy their products. then you get some breeder or hippy owner coming in swearing it has made their cats live better. i'm rather skeptical that they can notice that much of a difference to be honest. Garlic for cats is apparently and antiseptic and benifitial to the heath how?? surely just feeding a varied healthy diet and keeping up with veterinary care and proper excercise should suffice?

meh some 'O' are a pain in my backside with their internet searching.

oh it must be right it if it's on the internet!!

[quote user="Apple27surf"]

Hiya Steph,

No worries. That is totally fair enough. There are always sooo many rumours circulating, you don't know what to believe so I completely understand. I should have clarified. I haven't had a chance to sort out my profile properly as yet, so in brief I am an RVN - I worked 3.5 years in a mixed animal practice and have 4 years post qualification experience.

The majority of the information I posted above I had read in a Veterinary book "Clinical Veterinary Advisor - Dogs and Cats" by Etienne Cote. I was initially informed of onion and garlic toxicity by one of the vets I worked with. I then read up on it. There were some figures for the amount of onion needed to cause toxicity in some dogs but nothing for cats. It did say that in general most dogs would need to eat 0.5% of their body weight in onions to develop onion toxicity, but there are some breeds that are more sensitive to oxidative damage to the red blood cells - usually Japanese breeds like the Akita apparently. Obviously I guess every dog is different and may be more or less susceptible depending on their genetic makeup etc..

I also looked at the following link:

http://www.petsbynature.com/Garlic.htm

I said I had "gleamed" the information as it's not all from one source, and I am always sceptical regarding anything I read on the internet, but I trust the Veterinary book.

Hope that makes sense?

[/quote]

Re: Garlic and Onion

Apple27surf — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:36:52 GMT

No worries. I have now updated my profile for all to seeeeee!

Re: Garlic and Onion

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:12:12 GMT

Hi Apple27surf,

welcome to the site! Thank you for clarifying that matter and yourself of course. Its so much easier for everyone if we complete our profiles!

Re: Garlic and Onion

Apple27surf — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:52:54 GMT

Hiya Steph,

I also looked at the following link:

http://www.petsbynature.com/Garlic.htm

I said I had "gleamed" the information as it's not all from one source, and I am always sceptical regarding anything I read on the internet, but I trust the Veterinary book.

Hope that makes sense?

Re: Garlic and Onion

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:57:54 GMT

I thought onion was commonly known too, but saying that maybe Garlic is as well, and I did not know about that.

Re: Garlic and Onion

Louise B — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:32:00 GMT

I used to have a JRT (c4-5kg) and she ate a lot of raw onion in a day, over the next couple of days she passed 'thick' black urine (without difficulty). However, she remained bright and din't have any other clinical signs on physical exam. I never blood tested her though and would have expected some abnormalities had I done so. I thought onion was a commonly known about toxin in dogs?

Re: Garlic and Onion

Saskia Quinn — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:27:03 GMT

Noodle, you should (if you havent already) read my replies in the 'i'm so cross with my dog' thread, Ranger is a pro at eating what he shouldnt!!

Re: Garlic and Onion

Noodle — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:24:36 GMT

i knew about the cats and onion thing, but not dogs.... my canine dustbin has just finished off a good portion of cheese and onion pie - should i be worrying?

Re: Garlic and Onion

Anonymous — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:08:55 GMT

[quote user="Apple27surf"]

Hiya Steph and Mrs Dot Dot,

OK, here's what I have gleamed over the years:

Cats seem to apparently be more susceptible to garlic and onion poisoning than dogs, as their haemoglobin is more susceptible to oxidative damage (caused by components within onion and garlic). However, it is probably seen more commonly in dogs as cats are less likely to consume large amounts of garlic and onion than dogs. The main toxic effect is haemolytic anaemia, signs of which can be seen within 24 hours of ingestion, although apparently more usual to see signs over 24-72 hours post ingestion.

Onion is apparently more toxic than garlic. It would seem no one knows the toxic levels yet, but problems have been reported after a fairly large amount has been ingested in one sitting and also after being fed garlic little and often.

It doesn't seem to matter what form the onion or garlic is in (ie cooked, raw, dried etc.) still has the same effect.

There are garlic supplements out there for pets - have read about one potential canine fatality which is thought to be potentially caused by the use of garlic supplements, but was never proved.

Hope this helps? I will just point out that all of the above is only what I have read and been told. Don't know how accurate it is, but it seems to make sense to me.

[/quote]

hi welcome to the forum. excuse the questions, but where did you get this information from? what sort of work do you do and over what period of time did you 'gleam' this information and where? you don't really have much detail in your profile as to your credentials. it's nice to know where the information is coming from before i were to pass it on. Thanks!

Re: Garlic and Onion

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:08:39 GMT

Well you learn somethiing new every day.I had no idea garlic was bad for dogs, mine eat garlic bread all the time, with no ill effects I have to say.

Re: Garlic and Onion

Apple27surf — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:25:06 GMT

Hiya Steph and Mrs Dot Dot,

OK, here's what I have gleamed over the years:

It doesn't seem to matter what form the onion or garlic is in (ie cooked, raw, dried etc.) still has the same effect.

There are garlic supplements out there for pets - have read about one potential canine fatality which is thought to be potentially caused by the use of garlic supplements, but was never proved.

Hope this helps? I will just point out that all of the above is only what I have read and been told. Don't know how accurate it is, but it seems to make sense to me.

Re: Garlic and Onion

Anonymous — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:39:30 GMT

no not at all they actually make supplements for cats containing garlic. I think it's ok in moderation but I was just curious if there was a special dosage or a limit of either of them to where it would be dangerous.