Fox anaesthesia!?!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 21:25:47 GMT

I was thinking about this thread today, so popped back to see if anyone had updated you on how it went.

I was at college, but by all accounts it went fine - uneventful induction, ga, surgery and recovery, and fox was then put into isolation to recover fully. I saw her briefly in the waiting room when she came for her final post op check, and she looked very well, and not too nervous / bothered at being in a large carrier at the vets - I was amazed actually how chilled she was - she sniffed my fingers through the bars of the carrier, and then just lay down.

I can't remember what anaesthetic combo the vet said he used - I think it was dom/torb premed i/m via crush cage, then propofol i/v, et tube & iso/o2

She got the all clear at the post op check, and is now back 'home'

I think she was around 5-6 mths when she was spayed - client found her as a cub, and she was presented for vaccs and chipping soon after

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Geniverger — Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:35:59 GMT

Unfortunately you don't need a licence to keep a red fox as a pet. The legislation covering the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 requires an owner licence for all members of the canidae family except domestic dogs, racoon dogs and foxes.

However, the fox does fall under the Protection Of Animals Act 1911 which makes it a criminal offence to cause unnecessary suffering (as with all animals). More recently, allowing an animal to display natural behaviours has been added to the list of requirements (alongside the right food, shelter, veterinary treatment e.t.c.).

The owner is not legally doing anything wrong by keeping the fox as a pet, but surely he must know a fox is a different species from a dog, and cannot be trained in the same way especially when you consider domestic dogs have been selectively bred for their willing and compliant natures. Do you know how old the vixen is? If she is an adult neutering her may not solve aggression issues as they have become ingrained behaviours.

From some reading around I've done it seems it is very difficult, nigh impossible to release a captive adult fox into the wild as they are so imprinted on humans. Such foxes either end up on a rescue centre for the rest of their lives or euthanased on humane grounds. It is a shame that a beautiful wild animal is being kept this way, but sadly it seems there are few options.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:35:58 GMT

Thanks very much for all the advice guys will take all of it on board! much appreciated I really do apologise if it has offended anyone, was the last thing i wanted to do! will let you know how it goes! hopefully no limbs will be lost in the process!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Sue Cox — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 15:27:27 GMT

Ha, ha sorry Phrin!! Was very tempted to start some random thread in your name- moihahaha!!

Ahem. still good for congress tomorrow?

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Emma Purnell — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 15:07:01 GMT

The buster collar was slightly on my behalf

Do let us know how it goes and best of luck

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

A Little TLC — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 14:48:09 GMT

Oooh, also, don't bother with a buster collar, won't stay on a fox two minutes!!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

A Little TLC — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 04:54:49 GMT

Totally :) And please feel free to ask if you need anymore info. :)

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 22:35:55 GMT

Oi! Cox! Stop stealing my log in!

It least I didn't leave my FB open at work!

Anyway - this has turned into a very interesting thread! I haven't had anything to do with the fox either as of yet, but hopefully she will be OK to handle. As I'm on Inpatients next week, I shall make sure the isolation room is all set up, ready and waiting!

We usually give our surgical patients a small meal once they are up and about - would this be recommended with her? Assuming she lets us near her post op! Would Hills ID be appropriate as with other canines?

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Sue Cox — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 21:57:17 GMT

thanks a little TLC i think that will be enough to be getting on with

not sure on the temperament as havn't actually seen/had anything to do with it yet!! thanks for the advice!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

A Little TLC — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 18:28:30 GMT

In the hospital we have our ways, though it may be different for you, it all depends how 'tame' she is. For our wild foxes, ideally, we would place a tape muzzle on and gas them down with Isoflurane on a mask, remove tape muzzle when ready and intubate. If this is tricky you can use Domitor and Ketamine I/M if she is in a crush cage. But as I say it really varies with temperament. She should be kept well away from and domestic animals though. What other kind of info do you need?

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 14:01:08 GMT

ooo phrin has left her account logged in! that was me before!! (sue- with the cheetah pic)

hmm... I could do evil things...but I wont.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Phrin Vernon RVN — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:57:22 GMT

Wow thanks guys I will keep that all in mind and tell Kirsty too. Expect a message next week!! (hopefully typing with all fingers still intact)

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

thebeestingbutterfly — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:16:56 GMT

As with all previous statements i am also disheartened to hear of a fox being held captive, however, the original question was someone asking for help.

A fox coming to general practice for neutering...

I'm pretty sure that despite nobody agreeing with the situation we all want everything to go well and in as least a stressful manor as possible!

I have dealt with badger and fox anaesthesia through our local badger group.

the key i find is to keep stress to a minimum.

on admission they are sent to our isolation room away from barking dogs and general practice noise. they are kept in dim light and quiet. we have used domitor torbugesic combinations (but we tend to be doing xrays or small stitch ups rather than abdominal surgery.)

Our local groups bring the animals in large crush cages, enabling us to safely administer i/m injections.

Intubation/extubation is most likely going to be your trickiest time... use wow bandage to open the mouth so u don't get bitten!!

anatomically foxes are similar to cats and dogs although they are likely to be much leaner and incredibly fast with the old gnashers!!!

rectal temperature- 37.6 -38 c

probably best to not use a suture material that doesnt dissolve and to ensure sub dermal sutures are used not a stitches out appointment i'd wanna do

i think basically keep stress to a minimum, keep your hands out of the way, and extubate in the kennel/cage!!!!

I hope everything works out.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Tracy Windler RVN — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 22:42:28 GMT

In reference to foxes being solitary- prob best asking the experts again, but I'm pretty sure they live in small family groups, but hunt alone. They would definitely meet others for mating purposes, obviously!

I was referring to this in particular, as it is part of the RSPCA's 5 freedoms, a basic level of care they recommend for any animals "kept", such as pets, zoo animals and livestock. For solitary animals, I expect this would be taken into consideration, along with the other freedom "ability to display normal behaviour".

Its an awkward position to be in if you are not the one who made the (rather silly, I think!) decision to encourage the owner to keep it. As you say, its gone too far now to make any claims of wrong-doing. I just can't believe what went through that idiot's mind when he thought he would keep a fox as a pet! Poor thing. I just hope it doesn't go crazy and attack someone, or pull its stitches and guts out post-op!

Back to the original question- I would have thought (though I might stand corrected!) that the anaesthetic would be similar to a dog's? I'd be inclined to insist on a pretty strong pre-med!!

Let us know how she gets on, bless her!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Sue Cox — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 22:08:02 GMT

Well i do agree with you guys i really don't like the idea but what can I do I've not been involved with the case- so sorry no details- and it has gone too far with regards to vets agreeing to neuter etc.

though in response to keeping it alone with no other foxes being detrimental- aren't foxes solitary animals? i may be wrong about that, im obviously no expert!

anyways i will let you guys know how it goes next week- i will most likely be doing or helping with the anaesthesia. any comments about anaesthetic would be most welcome!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Sal the 1st — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:56:56 GMT

both of mine were chipped - at least then if one got squished post release we knew who it was

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Dreamcatcher — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:53:31 GMT

On a separate note, I am curious as to why one would choose to microchip a fox? Am I just being blonde or is there not really much point? Surely if ever it escaped nobody would think to scan it? Sorry to go off on a tangent! x

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

A Little TLC — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:31:36 GMT

I have no intention to nurse bash or refuse to give advice,I am MORE than happy to. I just wanted some background information before I can advise. We have had perm foxes though they live in a false set, not a house etc. But it's much easier to figure out the outcome with more info. :) I can say though that I don't think it will help with her aggression issues, but if you want advice, feel free to PM me :)

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Emma Purnell — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 18:57:57 GMT

Also, to note, if the whole reason this is being done is to stop the fox biting the owner, is the fact that the fox is biting the owner not proving that the animal is stressed and being put in situations which it is not happy with?

I don't believe spaying will have any effect on the behaviour of the fox either, and if dogs can't cope with buster collars I dread to think of the stress this fox will go through post op.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 18:35:24 GMT

Spaying will make no difference to its behaviour so IMHO is a pointless and painful procedure.

Saying that this fox has no ability to survive in the wild so this life, as a pet, is an acceptable second best is ridiculous- sometimes euthanasia is better than a miserable life.

Maybe this fox has the best that this 'owner' can offer it but as it is a wild animal, living in captivity alone, it's welfare is being compromised. A zoo isn't allowed to keep animals alone unless in specific circumstances - why should a man on the street?

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Sue Cox — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 18:21:35 GMT

Thanks Maisy!

Interesting comments about RSPCA and such, though perhaps our vet should have contacted the RSPCA before microchipping, vaccinating and agreeing to spay the fox (though he did investigate the legality first!) I feel it is a bit late to be contacting the RSPCA on humane grounds, considering it will probably live longer and more comfortably (i can hear the arguments already..) with the client, plus the fact that he has paid for chip and vaccs and then we tell him "actually we decided it was inhumane for you to keep the fox, therefore have contacted the RSPCA". Hmmm...

Also here's a thought, yes it would be better for it to be in the wild, but considering it is in a home environment would it not be less stress for fox and 'owner' for her to be spayed, behaviour wise?

Discuss.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Emma Purnell — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 17:23:44 GMT

Personally I have no qualms against the nurse making the request for help and I passed on the details of the best person I think could help as I understand that it is the Veterinary Surgeon who has made the decision to do this and you want to do the best for the patient, as you should.

I do, however, think we have the right to question this and I would find it very uncomfortable assisting with this procedure as I don't think spaying this animal is in it's best interests at all and will say that.

Either way I don't think anyone on this thread was attacking the nurse involved, just the fact this op is being performed at all!

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Tracy Windler RVN — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 15:10:52 GMT

As previously mentioned, this is in no way a "dig" at the nurses involved, but I agree, that if the RSPCA were to investigate, would they decide that this animal is not allowed to display natural behaviour, does not have company of its own species and therefore is, although through best intentions, being badly treated.

If this is the case, then (recent advice from VDS) if the Vet over-seeing the case is doing nothing to prevent the suffering, they are also at fault and can be liable for prosecution.

We are all in agreement (I think?) that this is inappropriate and should not be allowed to continue, so the vet in question should do something about it. The new nurse registration might suggest that as RVN's, we also have a level of responsibility?

I think its very commendable that you wish to do the best for your prospective patient and please don't feel that any of this debate is directed at you, its just the passion all the posters on the forum have for this sort of subject!

Please let us know what happens.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

AC1 — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:02:49 GMT

I agree that turning an animal away that needed treatment would be totally unacceptable but I think an un-necessary spay is totally different. Surely, it just encourages the person to keep it? In practice we all face strange and unethical requests from members of the public on a daily basis but can you imagine what it would be like if we agreed to every request? Just my opinion.

Re: Fox anaesthesia!?!

Maisy — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:51:55 GMT

Personally I don't think that refusing to help is particularly beneficial to the animal - no, foxes shouldn't be turned into domestic pets but if no-one agreed to carry out any treatment the outcome might turn out to be much worse.

Hope things turn out well for the fox.